Date: 2019-02-06 04:40 pm (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Yes, let's paint a sympathetic picture to the abuser of thousands if not millions of children.

Date: 2019-02-07 03:53 pm (UTC)
goattoucher: (Deadpool)
From: [personal profile] goattoucher
And let's reduce Darkseid to a sexual predator.

Date: 2019-02-06 05:35 pm (UTC)
thenicochan: (Laurie Mikey 2018)
From: [personal profile] thenicochan
Digging the art, and very interested in seeing how they go about depicting Goodness. It's kinda weird to see her so young.

Date: 2019-02-06 05:36 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Is there a single, solitary, fucking fantasy/high scifi setting where misogyny isn't part of the standard bad guy tropes?

How does this add to any of the characters at all....why the fuck does Darksied even have a sexual orientation?

How does misogyny even develop in a species where physical strength has zero correlation to gender?

Date: 2019-02-06 05:43 pm (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Darkseid having a one true love before he went off the deep end is at least canon. I got nothing on all your other points.

Date: 2019-02-06 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Orion had to come from somewhere, I thought.

It’s not just physical strength differences that lead to misogyny. The survival of their species is still dependent on women getting pregnant and nursing babies, that’s a significant portion of time that a man has more freedom than a woman, and that can develop misogyny too

Date: 2019-02-06 05:56 pm (UTC)
laughing_tree: (Default)
From: [personal profile] laughing_tree
>How does misogyny even develop in a species where physical strength has zero correlation to gender?

You could ask the exact same question about the "old gods" like the Greek or Norse gods.

I assume that, like those groups, the New Gods parallel human society in some vague magic-y way, because that's what being a god's all about. I don't think it needs an explanation, any more than why the gods *look* human needs one.
Edited Date: 2019-02-06 05:57 pm (UTC)

Date: 2019-02-06 10:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
well he does reproduce sexually. But thinking about it Darkseid is supposed to be the ultimate bad guy. So he should even do stuff that his underlings hate,

So basically Darkseid is sexist because it causes pain the Granny Goodness and the Furies and others

Date: 2019-02-07 12:01 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
But why make him sexist at all? He's a cosmic level sadistic nihilist,he wants to make life miserable, and short, for everyone, not just women. What is he doing too cause similar feelings to DeSaad and Glorious Godfrey?

Date: 2019-02-07 12:04 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I believe he harps on their physical weakness compared to other New Gods, like he focuses on the stupidity of Kalibak, but I'm not entirely positive

Date: 2019-02-07 04:05 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Which is reprehensible, but still a world away from sexual debasement.

Darkseid has fathered children biologically* , but I don't think we've ever been supposed to see him as a sexual being. He wants to end all life, aside from his sort of implied duty to produce an heir why would be produce more life?

* Though the more that keep being introduced, the more diluted the destiny of Darkseid as someone who shall be "defeated by his offspring" seems. (Darkseid vs Orion is a classic battle, once you add multiple choice to the opposition, it lessens it IMHO)

Date: 2019-02-07 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
who knows, maybe that's why he keeps doing it. To make people doubt the prophecy or at least that it will go the way they want

Date: 2019-02-07 07:17 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] broblawsky
Patriarchy is another expression of the need to dominate others, and Darkseid embodies all such needs. This is pretty in-character for him.

Date: 2019-02-07 03:59 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
But Darkseid should be beyond that IMHO.

Not in the sense of being too enlightened of course, but he'd be doing that to every gender because patriarchy has to be crushed along with everything else in the universe and replaced with a "Darkseid-archy".

Date: 2019-02-07 04:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
Darkseid-archy is just Patriarchy performed by Darkseid

Darkseid should not be anything unique or special. He should just be existing crappy things turned up to 11

Date: 2019-02-07 05:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Not really, Darkseid wouldn't think that limited.

Patriarchy is an entrenched system of power intended to keep women down. Darkseiarchy would be an entrenched system of power intended to keep everyone down regardless of gender, so singling out females would not be in keeping with it.

Date: 2019-02-07 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] broblawsky
The Patriarchy hurts everyone, just in different ways. People use it to motivate men to fight and die or to labor without complaint; those are very Darkseid-y ways of oppressing people. Every fascist state in human history has used patriarchy to manipulate its citizenry to some degree. Darkseid should be no different.

Date: 2019-02-08 03:21 am (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Darkseid is clearly non-binary, thank you very much.

Date: 2019-02-09 01:24 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Is there a single, solitary, fucking fantasy/high scifi setting where misogyny isn't part of the standard bad guy tropes?-

There's some, but it is overused, especially with how ham-handed it tends to be.

-How does this add to any of the characters at all....-

I don't think it does either.

Two things about misogyny as a villain troupe is, one, it automatically means undervaluing people, which is dumb and undercuts villain's apparent competence, and two, it also means favoring others- the men get to laugh at Goodness simply because they're men. I.e. it is not a broad, evenly applied evil so it undercuts more 'absolute evil' types.

Date: 2019-02-06 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
I liked the 100 page giant origin better, where she raised a dog and refuses to kill it because it’s more use to Darkseid alive than dead, then she kills it when Darkseid orders it to attack her

Date: 2019-02-06 06:32 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I dunno how I feel about this. I think Darkseid being a predatory boss does work even if it's not a take I'd go for, because at his heart, Darkseid isn't just grand, cosmic evil, he's petty and venal and twisted, so it makes sense. But then again, doing #MeToo for superhero comics feels pretty goofy, and having it centered on Apokalips (which makes sense, because I don't want to read a story about sexual harassment in like, the JSA) still feels kinda weird.

I can sort of see how this might work, with Granny Goodness becoming as bad as she is in part because of misogyny, how the structures of patriarchy work to turn her into a monster rather than a role model, but that's really not how the marketing material's presented it. Marketing and interviews have explicitly linked it to the #MeToo movement and the Furies working to build a better future for themselves, which is a weird angle. I mean they're still fascist murderers, so like, I'm not exactly rooting for them.

Maybe this'll be interesting, and I'm not going to fault it, but this probably isn't a book that I'm going to be reading.
Edited Date: 2019-02-06 06:35 pm (UTC)

Date: 2019-02-06 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] broblawsky
The original Mister Miracle series had the Furies (although not Granny) leaving Apokolips under Barda to make new lives for themselves on Earth. I think Kirby, at least, didn't feel that rank-and-file members of a totalitarian regime were beyond redemption.

Date: 2019-02-06 10:09 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I mean I'm not against redemption, it's just that the way this has been marketed is not "The Furies realize this is all bullshit and defect" but rather "The Furies find an empowering and gender-equitable way to grind the lowlies beneath their heel."

I mean maybe it won't work out like that, but it seems like within the constraints of this supposedly being a prequel there's not much else that can happen, because catching up to the present the Furies are still villains. It's just my first blush reaction though, I'm sure this could prove me wrong and be really good.
Edited Date: 2019-02-06 10:10 pm (UTC)

Date: 2019-02-06 11:52 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
Is complicated because I CAN see these working in a "Mad Max: Fury Road" kind of way. The problem is that things like #MeToo tend to be the sort of things comic writers only cover the surface, without digging too deep on what they are talking about.

Date: 2019-02-06 07:09 pm (UTC)
michaelsaint: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michaelsaint
I like an origin story for Granny Goodness. The art is also good but.... DAMN it is heavy handed.

First she is made to do domestic labor. Then her boss forces himself on her. Then she is put in a job that is demeaning and squanders her talent. All the while putting up with insults from other men.

I mean, do comic books writers not do any work? Do they just decide to make their protagonists stereotypes now? I realize there is some suspension of reality in all comic books but at least make the people real if the planet they are on isn't.

Date: 2019-02-06 08:35 pm (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
One problem with it being so heavy-handed is that it makes Apokolips feel mundane. Apparently Apokolips also has "hysterical" as a negative stereotype for women? Women in Apokolips are also expected to handle cleaning and child-rearing? They need to assert that they're equal, work twice as hard, listen to accusations that they slept their way to the top, etc.

This doesn't feel like an alien world of backstabbing gods - it feels like Earth with funny outfits.

Date: 2019-02-06 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lego_joker
Honestly, that describes a depressingly large amount of Kirby's actual work sooo...

Date: 2019-02-07 06:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
Which makes sense, given that majority ofhis work IS on Earth, just focusing on people with funny outfits.

Date: 2019-02-07 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
EXACTLY.

And the thing is, I was really on board for the idea of the Furies as an exploration of modern gender politics. It's just... the puppet strings are so obvious, you know? The baking contest is funny, at least.

Date: 2019-02-07 04:21 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
My issue isn't with anything you've said, exactly. Women do end up taking a lot of this crap even now, let alone one or two generations earlier, and an allegory that pulled no punches would be just fine with me. And credit where it's due: the issue features some pretty deep cuts from New Gods history.

It's just that whenever it's time to come up with something new, the story just reaches for a 20th- or 21st-century Earthwoman's experience instead of boiling those experiences down to their themes and inventing new Kirbytastic science fiction around them. Being called "hysterical" is a classic microaggression, but it's so rooted in Earth history that it's hard for me to keep believing this is a foreign world, even as I overlook Earth-referencing names like "DeSaad," "Steppenwolf," and "Darkseid."

Date: 2019-02-06 08:14 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
So, so disappointing. And badly written.

Completely pointless addition to her lore and the fact that this same thing could happen in a local insurance company office, with near the same dialogue, really takes away from the whole 'gods' angle.

Date: 2019-02-06 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] sanjuro
For some reason, i don't like the idea of Darkseid craving sex at this point (especially to the point of rape). I figured he had risen above such base desires.

Date: 2019-02-06 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
I mean, rapists are motivated by power, not sex, and this scene reads a lot to me like he’s demanding she prove she is completely subservient to Darkseid, so that aspect of it doesn’t bother me

Date: 2019-02-06 09:37 pm (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Plus, Darkseid has sired illegitimate children like Grayven before.

Date: 2019-02-06 11:56 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Except,as far as we can see, he only does it to the only female member of his inner circle.

It's basically adding sexual assault to the backstory of yet another female character who absolutely didn't need it added in.

Date: 2019-02-07 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
Oh, yeah, I’m not defending it, simply the issue of Darkseid having sexual urges or not

Date: 2019-02-07 08:55 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
"She was asking for it! Just look at how she was dressed - head-to-toe body armor instead of something manly, like my miniskirt and go-go boots."

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