cyberghostface: (Doom)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

"me: ' love? like, NONE? none love left beef? what about moms? what about queer identity? do they still know how to make babies in AoX? wh--'

[days pass]

me: 'all these COPS are HORNY and someone's PREGNANT and there's an ISSUE devoted just to GAY RAGE'" -- Leah Williams

Date: 2019-02-28 02:08 am (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
I wonder what compelled Marvel to tell this kind of story.

Date: 2019-02-28 03:59 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I'm guessing they want to do right by the X-Men after all the time junking them to shill the Inhumans. This is just something to "put the X-Men somewhere else" so Cyclops and Wolverine can get the X-Men going again.

I think. If Marvel thinks that far ahead.

Date: 2019-02-28 11:35 am (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Gavla)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
They're still getting jerked around, though, with or without Inhumans. They've been jerked around long before the Inhumans, and they will be jerked around long after the Inhumans or the Eternals or whomever gets the big push next.

Date: 2019-02-28 09:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
It feels like DC and Marvel in general have been caught very off-balance by current events, in that both of them already played around with the idea of someone fantastically evil as president or secretary of defense (Lex Luthor and Tony-- I mean Norman Osborn) as an allegory for the Bush administration because hey, the government couldn't get worse than BUSH, right?

Elsewhere, I've said the idea of mutants as stand-ins for all other minorities isn't as solid as Marvel likes to pretend, but it is the core premise of the series and therefore usually the best place to start. So this would've been a great story idea for 2009 or so, when many of us were briefly able to fantasize that a post-racial America was on the horizon, if not already here, and therefore we might need to confront some new problems.

It is much more imaginative than the "Age of Apocalypse only with X-Man this time" title would lead one to believe, but it also feels weirdly out of step with the present, like it was actually written and drawn ten years ago and everyone just forgot to release it.

(Unless you want to read the mutants being removed from the main Earth as some sort of deportation allegory, but that feels a little too generous.)

Date: 2019-03-04 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
"Elsewhere, I've said the idea of mutants as stand-ins for all other minorities isn't as solid as Marvel likes to pretend"

I'm sorry, this isn't really about you, but I really, really don't get why so many people point this out and talk about it as if this observation isn't decades old and universally understood. Like, some of these seriously come off as if they think they are the first people to notice, this shocking revelation that destroys X-Men forever. No, everybody gets that, they just accept it and move on. It's basically Superman fooling people by wearing glasses.

Date: 2019-03-05 02:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Heh, well, I have mixed emotions about this. It's nice to hear that others feel as you do but disappointing when your ideas turn out not as special as you think. It's not an observation I've seen others make much if at all, but there are vast swaths of comics culture where I don't spend any time.

I would say that there is at least some difference between this and Clark Kent's glasses, though. For one thing, the latter trope is pretty perfunctory in modern comics stories. It's rarely even mentioned and almost never drives a plot, whereas mutant rights and their metaphorical dimensions are the springboard for this and many other X-Men arcs.

For another, the glasses have been mocked not only in various parodies (Superduperman, The Tick, SNL) but even in "official" stories set in the same fictional universe (Married Clark would tweak Lois about it now and again), whereas the mutants = all minorities thing, to my knowledge, has not. Maybe that's because writers would be jumpy about anything that could be misconstrued as mocking minorities, but whatever the reason, the mutant analogy doesn't seem questioned in those arenas.

I don't really want to destroy the X-Men with a lightning bolt of logic. I like them overall, and it's not like a bunch of people with unpredictable powers wouldn't be feared and hated. The property just feels a little... quick to congratulate itself for its wokeness, sometimes, when it'd do better to think through its premise a little more deeply.

Date: 2019-03-05 08:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
Well-and again, my issues weren't with you, just figured you wouldn't mind if I talked about it-that's legit odd, because I remember that being brought up everywhere even when I just got into comics

It's not a perfect comparison, I know-it's more like how Indiana Jones is basically grave-robber, except all the villains are motivated specifically by wanting to stop him from robbing graves-my point is, everybody knows the argument and it's really one of the first things you realize and either accept or explain to yourself in some way.

It's not mentioned in the official stories, because it would mean admitting the basic premise doesn't work under scrutiny and that just breaks narrative-and you can't do that, because that means no more X-Men comics.

Thinking should never be the enemy-but you are mistaken to think this is something writers don't get. It's seriously incredibly easy observance that homophobia isn't a thing because Ellen can blow up your house if her glasses fall off (I stole, and Indiana Jones thing from somewhere else, would feel bad if I didn't make that clear).
Edited Date: 2019-03-05 12:27 pm (UTC)

Date: 2019-03-05 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
See, the thing is, I reject the idea that the only choices X-writers have are just (1) to accept that metaphor trumps story logic or (2) to throw up one's hands and say, "Oh jeez this whole thing doesn't work at all, strike the set, X-MEN OVER, EVERYBODY GO HOME."

Admittedly, the third choice is risky and hard work, but it can be done... and has been. Often, even! There are plenty of examples in the property's 50-plus-year history of writers acknowledging the complexities and intersectionality of the mutants' world. But there are also a lot of X-stories that seem to lean hard right on the weakest part of the premise while asking us to ignore it. Superman may ask us to ignore the glasses thing and Iron Man may lean on his contradictions a bit, but not many franchises ask us to do both at once.

Date: 2019-03-06 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] strejdaking
To be clear, I wasn't trying to say it's not a problem or it's as small/big as the glasses thing-just that pointing it out is extremely ever-present old take.

Which stories do you think do that? I know Morrisson tried to shift the metaphor into being about generational conflict.

Date: 2019-03-08 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Well, a lot of Magneto stories avoid oversimplifying the metaphor easily because Magneto's default attitude, averaging out his appearances over time and across all media, is "Racism against my people is bad, so let's KILL EVERY LAST RACIST ON EARTH," and the X-Men essentially argue for nuance just by showing up to stop him. Or when Magneto's feeling calmer, he can argue with himself.

The Nineties and Nineties-ish Claremont-Lee "Magneto Protocols" story was a good example, despite its other flaws. Anti-mutant xenophobia was still in the story's roots, but it was a geopolitical thriller without a hint of pretense that mutants weren't immensely powerful beings.

The Weapon X program and its variants, while clearly oppressive, are also closer to plausibility than "oh, no, not torches and pitchforks, our incredible powers are nothing against those!" It's a plot point that recognizes their power and finds other ways to oppress them (and on a good day, it can deepen the analogy by showing how minorities can be used by the system as more than mere chattel).

If you do want to drag mutants' privilege levels down to that of other victims of society, the Sentinels can be an excellent corrective when used well: a vast, implacable, emotionless force that can pick out mutants by genetic identity and formulate weapons designed to destroy them. They're like institutionalized racism in killer robot form. The only problem with them is that they're not really sustainable in a Marvel universe where the good guys usually win and have far too much compassion to allow such an obvious evil.

Morrison's approach is probably my favorite overall, even if the plots got a little overcooked toward the end of his run. I particularly enjoyed how he took the mutant metaphor in some new and more logical directions-- "I hate mutants," said some rando in one story, "but they have some cool BANDS." He came tantalizingly close to creating a mutant subculture, but subsequent writers tended to treat his work as a set of newer, edgier characters instead, and DC and Marvel's tendency to eat their young has diluted those efforts.

I also appreciate that the X-Men's rogues include forces that are not an obvious analogy. Sometimes they fight Mojo, or Doctor Doom, or the Brood... and you can figure out meanings for those guys in a racial framework, but you wouldn't automatically think of them when trying to expand the analogy. And that feels real to me, because minority politics don't exist in a vacuum.

Iceman's doing pretty neat stuff with gay identity and mutant identity right now, too.

Date: 2019-02-28 01:41 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
To show how easy oppression can be if you don't think about what you're doing?

Date: 2019-02-28 03:49 am (UTC)
cypherfdp: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cypherfdp
out of all the plots conceivable by the human imagination, how did we get to Darling in the Franxx with X-Men

Date: 2019-02-28 03:31 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Holy shit thats what this is. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

Date: 2019-02-28 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] astrakhan42
Now now, we won't know for certain that it's "DiTF with X-Men" until the Dire Wraiths randomly show up as the villains when the story is past the 3/4 mark.

Date: 2019-02-28 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] locuatico
Do they explain how are kids supposedly born in this society?
Wait... They don't have protocols for a pregnancy? Seriously?

Date: 2019-02-28 04:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
The dialogue implies babies are created in a lab

Date: 2019-02-28 04:57 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
I just like to think no one has ever explained to Nate where babies come from.

Date: 2019-02-28 05:37 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Look, if being created through mad science and genetic engineering by an evil scientist worked for him, why wouldn't it work for everyone else? Get with the program.

Date: 2019-02-28 07:15 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
...somehow it hadn't clicked for me that THIS is why things work that way in his utopia. This is really all just about Nate feeling alone, isn't it?

Date: 2019-02-28 09:27 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gnarll
Yes, the redeeming feature of this story is that its not out of character for Nate. He came from a shortbranch timeline like this one, the Age of Apocalypse, and didn't have any of the normal family upbringing people have.

When plugged into Legion-Moiras universe creation power, this is just the sort of thing he would make, thinking it best for everyone.

Date: 2019-02-28 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
plus didn't the first time he died feature him briefly linking every mind on Earth? That didn't do ANYTHING long term, so it's possible that trying a world that's kind of the opposite, everyone has their right to exist but no one is really close makes sense to him

Date: 2019-02-28 05:36 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
In other issues, we see that they're all created in the lab and grown in tubes, and then raised in creches or whatever.

Date: 2019-02-28 07:32 am (UTC)
dcbanacek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dcbanacek
How beauteous mutantkind is! O brave new world, / That has such people in 't.

- John the "savage", paraphrased

Date: 2019-02-28 01:39 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk

Date: 2019-02-28 01:39 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Think Huxley's "Brave New World"

Date: 2019-02-28 01:09 pm (UTC)
angelophile: (Chamber Uhhh?)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
Is Moneta meant to be this world's Monet or something?

Date: 2019-03-01 02:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
No, Moneta is a new character created for this mini. Some french Canadian 18 year old

Monet is apparently in another book but we haven't seen her yet

Date: 2019-03-04 04:20 pm (UTC)
angelophile: (Default)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
Ah, okay. Thanks.

Date: 2019-02-28 01:38 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Setting up a utopia which is clearly a dystopia requires a lot of groundwork, and given this is written by Leah Williams, an openly bisexual woman, I'm giving this one a lot of slack and waiting to see how it develops, working within a larger shared event she wasn't responsible for.

I'd suggest checking out her tumblr, where she also discusses the behind the scenes of the story in more detail.

Date: 2019-02-28 03:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
death of the author. Some people don't care what point the author is trying to make if there's any chance it can be looked at in some alternate way

Date: 2019-02-28 06:02 pm (UTC)
erikred: (athos)
From: [personal profile] erikred
I almost want to open a tumblr account just to say what an amazing job she's doing.

Date: 2019-02-28 10:32 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] matrix_dragon
Her comments on people's reactions to Moneta is fascinating.

Date: 2019-02-28 10:14 pm (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Jubilee looks a lot better on the cover than the interior art.

Date: 2019-03-05 09:15 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
I am confused... what is happening in this series?


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