I just conducted an experiment - I watched the first fifteen minutes of the Whedon cut and then went back to watch the first fifteen minutes of the Snyder cut - and oh my god.
You are absolutely right. I understand Fishers' allegations completely now. The Whedon version is outright offensive - once you compare it Snyder's.
Wonder Woman's sequence is an excellent example. In Whedon's version - I don't know where they are - it might be Paris? In Snyder's - I'm shown where they are - and there's a black flag flying regarding Superman. Also, in this version, we get more of an idea of how horrible the terrorist group is and how unbeatable. We're shown the scene where she throws out the bomb, and she saves the children, also why the children are even there. And, he changed the dialogue - in this scene, the man states - "I don't believe it" (he can't believe a woman can do this) and she says, "believe!" Snyder has a heavy theme about agency that is missing from Whedon's.
Then let's go to Bruce Wayne. In the Snyder version - we see the scope of Bruce's travel into the cold wilderness to find someone. It's a follow through on BvsS. He doesn't know exactly what is coming - just that something is - and he has to recruit a team.
In Whedon's version - they make the tempting choice to go the Marvel route - focus on the mystery of the "mother boxes", but that only works if you've taken the time elsewhere to build up your characters. Also, in Snyder's version the mystery of the mother boxes isn't the most important thing - so much as the theme of working together and synchronicity. Whedon drops that completely or doesn't seem to get it?
In Snyder - we have a scene with Cyborg - and his box being awoken by Superman's death cry. Lex Luther sees the image in the ship with three boxes come into being with Superman's death cry. (It's the reason he tells Batman at the very end of BvS that something is coming bigger than them all). The Snyder film opens with Superman's death scene, the Whedon with Superman's memorial service by the Government, not the family, and everyone mourning Superman. While in the Snyder - we're shown the nations are mourning, as is his family, but we're also shown that Superman awakened something.
Batman isn't investigating the boxes in this version - which he is doing in Whedon's. Also Batman's "physical" attraction makes it into dialogue in Whedon's cut. There's a scene after he visits the fishing village - that has him on the plane with Alfred discussing calling Diana. It doesn't work at all, and I found it offensive after I saw the Snyder cut.
Let's go to the scene in the fishing village? Whedon undercuts that with humor and changes the dialogue to focus on the mother boxes. Which I'm sorry doesn't work - there's no reason the fishing village would know about them. Arthur doesn't know about them either. Also it misses the point of what should be happening here, and takes away Arthur's agency as a character and his arc.
Arthur and Diana are similar characters - Diana left the Amazons for a mortal man, who she lost. But she lost more - her family, and the people she's shut herself off from are the Amazons who she can't return to. The opening in the Snyder cut shows the box being awakened in the Amazon stronghold. Meanwhile - it's also being Awakened in Atlantis - the Atlantean stronghold. Arthur wants nothing to do with his people or anyone. That's what the conversation between Arthur and Bruce is about. It shouldn't be about the boxes at all. Whedon, Johns, and Berg made this movie about the mother boxes or the problem - more plot focused, while Snyder's film is more character driven and not just about the mcNuffin - the boxes. The boxes and villians in Snyder's film serve as a metaphor for the darker impulses in the characters, and their need to unite and put their personal demons aside.
Also we have a bunch of loners coming together. And moving out of their comfort zone.
Add to that - Whedon/Johns/Berg do change the film from giving Diana, Cyborg and Flash agency - to giving it all to Wayne and Kent. In Snyder's film, Diana tells Wayne about the boxes and the story - she's the one who investigates and finds out about it. Also, Diana helps Wayne figure out how to recruit the team members. And it is Diana who contacts Wayne, she breaks into his flight deck. There's no idiotic and highly out of character discussion about Diana between Wayne and Alfred.
Remember how you said the problem with Waitaki was he undercuts the dramatic moments with ill-placed jokes in Thor? I see it more in Whedon's version. I mean the exchange between Bruce and Arthur makes more sense in the Snyder version. Arthur pushes Bruce against a wall after Bruce says something in the fishing village's native tongue. And instead of saying "I hear you talk to fish?" Bruce gives him a wad of cash to give to the villagers. And then they discuss why Arthur doesn't want to be part of a team and is perfectly happy doing what he does.
On top of this? How Arthur disappears? Wayne doesn't see - because he's distracted by the villagers singing. If you wanted to edit the scene? You could have just edited out the singing - although it's there in the Snyder version because Snyder is making a point about hero worship and is questioning it.
There's a lot of telling in Whedon's version and more showing in Snyder's. (Make's sense Whedon is a sitcom writer or dramedy writer - he's not a film director. He got his start writing on Roseanne, Snyder got his as a filmmaker and director.)
How about the score? Wow the difference. Whedon's starts with Leonard Cohen's Everbody Knows (which I love as a song, but I'm not sure works here - and kind of undercuts the entire visual sequence). Danny Elfman is more jaunty in his scoring of Whedon's. Snyder has a beautiful and haunting orchestration as the beginning of his film, that pulls you in immediately.
I am amazed...by what happened here. And I agree it is baffling. And it is offensive what Johns and Whedon did to this film.
no subject
You are absolutely right. I understand Fishers' allegations completely now. The Whedon version is outright offensive - once you compare it Snyder's.
Wonder Woman's sequence is an excellent example. In Whedon's version - I don't know where they are - it might be Paris? In Snyder's - I'm shown where they are - and there's a black flag flying regarding Superman. Also, in this version, we get more of an idea of how horrible the terrorist group is and how unbeatable. We're shown the scene where she throws out the bomb, and she saves the children, also why the children are even there. And, he changed the dialogue - in this scene, the man states - "I don't believe it" (he can't believe a woman can do this) and she says, "believe!" Snyder has a heavy theme about agency that is missing from Whedon's.
Then let's go to Bruce Wayne. In the Snyder version - we see the scope of Bruce's travel into the cold wilderness to find someone. It's a follow through on BvsS. He doesn't know exactly what is coming - just that something is - and he has to recruit a team.
In Whedon's version - they make the tempting choice to go the Marvel route - focus on the mystery of the "mother boxes", but that only works if you've taken the time elsewhere to build up your characters. Also, in Snyder's version the mystery of the mother boxes isn't the most important thing - so much as the theme of working together and synchronicity. Whedon drops that completely or doesn't seem to get it?
In Snyder - we have a scene with Cyborg - and his box being awoken by Superman's death cry. Lex Luther sees the image in the ship with three boxes come into being with Superman's death cry. (It's the reason he tells Batman at the very end of BvS that something is coming bigger than them all). The Snyder film opens with Superman's death scene, the Whedon with Superman's memorial service by the Government, not the family, and everyone mourning Superman. While in the Snyder - we're shown the nations are mourning, as is his family, but we're also shown that Superman awakened something.
Batman isn't investigating the boxes in this version - which he is doing in Whedon's. Also Batman's "physical" attraction makes it into dialogue in Whedon's cut. There's a scene after he visits the fishing village - that has him on the plane with Alfred discussing calling Diana. It doesn't work at all, and I found it offensive after I saw the Snyder cut.
Let's go to the scene in the fishing village? Whedon undercuts that with humor and changes the dialogue to focus on the mother boxes. Which I'm sorry doesn't work - there's no reason the fishing village would know about them. Arthur doesn't know about them either.
Also it misses the point of what should be happening here, and takes away Arthur's agency as a character and his arc.
Arthur and Diana are similar characters - Diana left the Amazons for a mortal man, who she lost. But she lost more - her family, and the people she's shut herself off from are the Amazons who she can't return to. The opening in the Snyder cut shows the box being awakened in the Amazon stronghold. Meanwhile - it's also being Awakened in Atlantis - the Atlantean stronghold. Arthur wants nothing to do with his people or anyone.
That's what the conversation between Arthur and Bruce is about. It shouldn't be about the boxes at all. Whedon, Johns, and Berg made this movie about the mother boxes or the problem - more plot focused, while Snyder's film is more character driven and not just about the mcNuffin - the boxes. The boxes and villians in Snyder's film serve as a metaphor for the darker impulses in the characters, and their need to unite and put their personal demons aside.
Also we have a bunch of loners coming together. And moving out of their comfort zone.
Add to that - Whedon/Johns/Berg do change the film from giving Diana, Cyborg and Flash agency - to giving it all to Wayne and Kent. In Snyder's film, Diana tells Wayne about the boxes and the story - she's the one who investigates and finds out about it. Also, Diana helps Wayne figure out how to recruit the team members. And it is Diana who contacts Wayne, she breaks into his flight deck. There's no idiotic and highly out of character discussion about Diana between Wayne and Alfred.
Remember how you said the problem with Waitaki was he undercuts the dramatic moments with ill-placed jokes in Thor? I see it more in Whedon's version. I mean the exchange between Bruce and Arthur makes more sense in the Snyder version. Arthur pushes Bruce against a wall after Bruce says something in the fishing village's native tongue. And instead of saying "I hear you talk to fish?" Bruce gives him a wad of cash to give to the villagers. And then they discuss why Arthur doesn't want to be part of a team and is perfectly happy doing what he does.
On top of this? How Arthur disappears? Wayne doesn't see - because he's distracted by the villagers singing. If you wanted to edit the scene? You could have just edited out the singing - although it's there in the Snyder version because Snyder is making a point about hero worship and is questioning it.
There's a lot of telling in Whedon's version and more showing in Snyder's. (Make's sense Whedon is a sitcom writer or dramedy writer - he's not a film director. He got his start writing on Roseanne, Snyder got his as a filmmaker and director.)
How about the score? Wow the difference. Whedon's starts with Leonard Cohen's Everbody Knows (which I love as a song, but I'm not sure works here - and kind of undercuts the entire visual sequence). Danny Elfman is more jaunty in his scoring of Whedon's. Snyder has a beautiful and haunting orchestration as the beginning of his film, that pulls you in immediately.
I am amazed...by what happened here. And I agree it is baffling. And it is offensive what Johns and Whedon did to this film.