We still don't know who the enemy is (my money on Skrulls), I don't believe it's Loki I already ship Natasha/Loki Steve has a gun, all is right with the world Don't like how they just attached Hulk at the end - is he in the film for just 3 seconds?
I've been pretty consistent from the start of this conversation about talking about an initially unpowered Jan who will later on get powers and perhaps an expanded role, so I'm not sure why you've failed to get that.
Characters can be developed in tight spaces. As I said, movies need supporting characters; Jan is just going to be Pym's (you've made it explicitly clear you will not accept Jan without Pym Being First!) so I think she would be better off being pushed as an Avengers supporting character.
Cap and Moon Knight have, functionally the same skillset. Cap is not faster and stronger and more quick thinking than any human should be, he is explicitly peak human levels at all these things. Moon Knight is also highly skilled in the physical arena; he's certainly not wildly outmatched by Cap. From a narrative point of view, they're unpowered guys who are really good in a fight and at throwing stuff. You're just trying to create a difference so you can justify your frankly ridiculous assertion that you can't have two people with the same powers of the same gender on the same roster. Seriously, it's horseshit. Leave it alone.
I'm also interested that you've valiantly argued the individuality of Cap and Moon Knight while cheerfully allowing those two chicks are virtually identical, sure, whatever. Blonde, black-costumed, masked ex-fighter pilot Colonel with Kree powers and brunette white-costumed private investigator journalist powered by chemical spill and married with kid? Sure, you'll acknowledge they're practically the same, lol! Look, the artist thinks so too, he's not putting them in the same panel!
Which brings me to my final point, that a person can be sexist without meaning to. They can believe sexist things (like 'two girls would be confusing') without realising they're sexist. They can passionately defend their sexist opinions as correct and even progressive (adding a woman just to have a woman is worse than NO women! Better to wait for the days when they give female superheroes PROPER treatment!). It's not enough to be passively well-meaning; we have all been raised in the patriarchy, and internalised many of its beliefs as 'normal'. (For instance! When presented with a group that is equal numbers of men and women, most people will believe it to be female-dominated. Fascinating.) To not be sexist, those beliefs have to be found and rooted out; but some of them are 'normal' at such a bonedeep level it can be very difficult.
I think you've been behaving in a sexist fashion, arguing in defence of discriminatory policies, and expressing sexist opinions. You can, of course, ignore my opinion; after all, you *know* you're not a sexist, right?
And I've been pretty consistent in noting that looks are not the issue here, but you seem to love the idea that I'm saying that audiences will literally not be able to tell them apart because they look exactly the same. But nope. done arguing about that. Neither of us are moving in any direction on that front anymore. But if you're going to call me sexist, fine, go for it. But then I'm going to call you ignorant and working counter what you claim to uphold. If you value the idea of a token woman at all, it means you don't care if they should be put in because they could further the narrative or actually be well developed characters. By saying that you don't really care how its done, you would just be happy having another woman on the team is just saying, "No, its okay, they don't need any depth or character. As long as they're there and recognizable I'll be satisfied, please go on." Way to support the cause for enlightened, valuable, and promising female characters, because they don't have to be any of those things, they just have to be there.
Oh, good! A man has come to tell me how I'm doing feminism wrong. *slow hand-clap* That is a totally appropriate response to a woman telling a man he's being sexist . Not a fucking second's self-examination there, was there?
It's funny! Your last comment, you realised I was an intelligent person and could follow almost all of my logic! But now I've dared call your behaviour sexist, suddenly you realise I'm ignorant and setting back the cause of feminism.
You're hilarious, in the depressing black comedy way.
Because scans_daily is a feminist community, I would like to remind you, as well as others on this post really, to consider their words carefully when arguing against people who are complaining of the lack of female characters, because you may easily fall down into patterns of silencing or derailing feminist discussions. It is important to be personally alert for this because unintentional sexism can be very upsetting to discover in one's own actions. It happens to many of us - what matters is how we react when it is pointed out to us or we notice it. Perhaps you might find a walk through our anti-oppression resources quick list helpful to know better how to avoid it.
Also because scans_daily is a feminist community, being told that you have male privilege, that you said something offensive or sexist or acted in a sexist fashion is NOT considered an insult. Calling a fellow member ignorant in response on the other hand, is. For this reason, here is your FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING. Please note that if you receive two further warnings you will lose the ability to post on this community.
Well, if it was bad enough to get me a warning, I am clearly in the wrong here. I have clearly made some mistakes, at the very least in wording and delivery. I would just like to reiterate that however it may seem, and even if it is indeed unintentional sexism, I did not intentionally make any sexist comments with that purpose. I apologize again to valtyr and any other member that might have been offended reading my arguments, but I would like to point out the irony in a woman who is arguing for equality saying that men can't believe in the feminist cause or interperit in different ways than women could.
While we appreciate the apology and that this was unintentional; I'd like to stress that we really do not believe that valtyr was saying that men can't be feminist or interpret it different. For the most part, valtyr emphasized that men see things from a position of privilege. I know many men whose opinion I respect a great deal on feminism; and all of them know to check their privilege in some situations, such as when discussing about women about issues related to gender. If you really care about such issues, I sincerely urge you to try to educate yourself on that topic if you weren't aware of it up until now.
And if you'll allow me a personal asides *takes mod hat off* Token characters are bad. But lack of representation is worse.
Understood. i think I will look into it further, because clearly I don't really know quite enough about it. Otherwise none of this would have happened to begin with.
And I would disagree. A token character with no character is nothing but a token to pay the toll.
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kirke_novak) wrote in ![[community profile]](http://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
scans_daily2011-10-11 15:15
no subject
Characters can be developed in tight spaces. As I said, movies need supporting characters; Jan is just going to be Pym's (you've made it explicitly clear you will not accept Jan without Pym Being First!) so I think she would be better off being pushed as an Avengers supporting character.
Cap and Moon Knight have, functionally the same skillset. Cap is not faster and stronger and more quick thinking than any human should be, he is explicitly peak human levels at all these things. Moon Knight is also highly skilled in the physical arena; he's certainly not wildly outmatched by Cap. From a narrative point of view, they're unpowered guys who are really good in a fight and at throwing stuff. You're just trying to create a difference so you can justify your frankly ridiculous assertion that you can't have two people with the same powers of the same gender on the same roster. Seriously, it's horseshit. Leave it alone.
I'm also interested that you've valiantly argued the individuality of Cap and Moon Knight while cheerfully allowing those two chicks are virtually identical, sure, whatever. Blonde, black-costumed, masked ex-fighter pilot Colonel with Kree powers and brunette white-costumed private investigator journalist powered by chemical spill and married with kid? Sure, you'll acknowledge they're practically the same, lol! Look, the artist thinks so too, he's not putting them in the same panel!
Which brings me to my final point, that a person can be sexist without meaning to. They can believe sexist things (like 'two girls would be confusing') without realising they're sexist. They can passionately defend their sexist opinions as correct and even progressive (adding a woman just to have a woman is worse than NO women! Better to wait for the days when they give female superheroes PROPER treatment!). It's not enough to be passively well-meaning; we have all been raised in the patriarchy, and internalised many of its beliefs as 'normal'. (For instance! When presented with a group that is equal numbers of men and women, most people will believe it to be female-dominated. Fascinating.) To not be sexist, those beliefs have to be found and rooted out; but some of them are 'normal' at such a bonedeep level it can be very difficult.
I think you've been behaving in a sexist fashion, arguing in defence of discriminatory policies, and expressing sexist opinions. You can, of course, ignore my opinion; after all, you *know* you're not a sexist, right?
no subject
no subject
It's funny! Your last comment, you realised I was an intelligent person and could follow almost all of my logic! But now I've dared call your behaviour sexist, suddenly you realise I'm ignorant and setting back the cause of feminism.
You're hilarious, in the depressing black comedy way.
Mod Note
Mod Warning
Also because
Re: Mod Warning
Either way, I apologize.
Re: Mod Warning
And if you'll allow me a personal asides *takes mod hat off*
Token characters are bad. But lack of representation is worse.
Re: Mod Warning
And I would disagree. A token character with no character is nothing but a token to pay the toll.
Re: Mod Warning
Then you would have chosen no Jean Grey, no Susan Storm, no Janet van Dyne, and no Storm. And we would be immeasurably poorer.