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scans_daily2021-03-18 07:42 pm
lucean) wrote in scans_daily2021-03-18 07:42 pm
NS: The Snyder Cut Justice League movie
As most here in this fine community are without a doubt aware, the Snyder Cut version of the Justice League movie came out on HBO Max today, in the full glory of four hours. Having just finished It, I decided to create a discussion post here about it while posting some of my thoughts on it.
Before digging deeper in to the movie itself, a couple of caveats. First of all, I really like both Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman, so Snyder's sensibilities works for me. Second, while I was fine with the original Justice League when I first saw it, but as time has gone by, I've found myself disliking more and more. It is a film that aims to be okay and that emptiness at the heart of it really became heavier for me in retrospect. Still I realize there are people who like it, nothing away from that.
So with that to this version of the movie itself and I will begin the discussion by a simple statement. I FUCKING LOVED THIS FUCKING MOVIE. Now that I have that off my chest, to more collected points.
-This movie is a weird success as it is in structure in many ways the same movie as the original Justice League movie, but almost every scene feels better here. Some of is just the additional depth majority of characters are given here, but it has a flow that isn't the original. However, the most important aspect is that here everyone in the Justice League feel absolutely epic and like a god with the action sequences espeically managing to convey that sense of power.
-With that said, the movie has a lot of stumbles to it as well. The exposition is ridiculously clumsy at times and there is a really bziarre plot hole in the film. So there is a world which had the Anti-Life Equation and where Darkseid was defeated, but apparently the Apokalips crew has forgotten which world it is somehow. Yet they know they lost the Mother Boxes on that world and know that the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but only realize that Earth is the world that repelled Darkseid after Steppenwolfe tells them that. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Fortunately didn't bother me at all.
-On Steppenwolfe, while he was still a generic comic book movie villain, I thought this version managed to give him a lot more depth as I got the character and motivations surprisingly better.
-Continuing on that note, it isn't difficult to understand why majority of the actors involved wanted this version to be released as they are allowed to do more here, wtih one notable exception, and have far more impactful character moments.
-Still the first Martian Manhunter cameo was really dumb. Not only that, it felt like a big misstep as the Martha/Lois scene before that was actually really emotionally powerful.
-"You have a satellite?" "I have six."
-Barry's final run was epic. Hell, the whole final fight concept and choreography was excellent and managed to sideline characters in a way that wasn't Clark leaving a massive fight to big brother Barry.
-On that note, this was something baffled me. Comparing the original and this version makes it abundantly clear how much Johns influenced the original theater release as evidenced by the lack of those weird Superman fawning scenes in this version. Seriously, I sighted out of relief when they didn't have that bizarre 'You think you could beat me' scene between Clark and Bruce here. Now that makes sense, but what I couldn't figure out it is that Johns absolutely loves Barry, but the Flash was so much better here and allowed to do more. Like seriously that final run.
-I will never stop shipping Bruce and Diana. While it will never get fulfilled in this film series, at least it was nicely set up.
-What genuinely shocked me was that Bruce being suicidal arc was completley from Whedon and Johns. It had the best emotional scene in the theater version, the talk between Bruce and Diana, but still as an arc it was a really weird one which I had assumed was from Snyder.
-To return to the comparison between the theater version and this cut, what makes the theater cut so astonishing looking back now is that it made almost every scene worse. Like they actively cut and added to all action scenes stuff that made them inferior. It is such an accomplishment.
-The only note I will make on Whedon, despite there being a lot to be said because of this version and recent allegations, is in comparison to Snyder. To put it simply, Whedon is nowhere the level Snyder is on in capturing superpowered action. Actually I would put Snyder as among the best when it comes to that specific skill as his ability to really give that sense of power to those scenes is genuiinely impressive.
-Real sad we will never get that Batman/Deathstroke film as it would have been dope. Having written that, the Knightmare stuff was superweird as that was apparently the only new scene Snyder shot after his cut was greenlit. Which means that the only thing Snyder added was a cliffhanger scene that will never be resolved. I'm conflicted on that as on one hand it is stupid, but on the other hand I can't help but respect that level of committment.
-With all that positivity, there is something that does leave me conflicted. The toxicity for and against Snyder, and his DC films, is a huge problem in online discussion. It also cannot be denied that the fact that there were some pretty questionable actions by the fanbase that wanted the Snyder cut released that led to it now being available. This isn't to justify what they did, but rather a part of me feels torn on enjoying something that is born out of such poisoneous fruit.
-Rotten Tomatoes score is at the time of writing at 77% and there's a lot of good buzz on it, at least based on what I've seen. From the critical stand point, this had to exceed WB's expectations, which is a good signal when they think of similar projects in the future.
With that I end and would love to hear others thought on this as they get around watching it. Apologies on the many words, hopefully at least a few of them made sense. And seriously, I loved this movie so much.
Before digging deeper in to the movie itself, a couple of caveats. First of all, I really like both Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman, so Snyder's sensibilities works for me. Second, while I was fine with the original Justice League when I first saw it, but as time has gone by, I've found myself disliking more and more. It is a film that aims to be okay and that emptiness at the heart of it really became heavier for me in retrospect. Still I realize there are people who like it, nothing away from that.
So with that to this version of the movie itself and I will begin the discussion by a simple statement. I FUCKING LOVED THIS FUCKING MOVIE. Now that I have that off my chest, to more collected points.
-This movie is a weird success as it is in structure in many ways the same movie as the original Justice League movie, but almost every scene feels better here. Some of is just the additional depth majority of characters are given here, but it has a flow that isn't the original. However, the most important aspect is that here everyone in the Justice League feel absolutely epic and like a god with the action sequences espeically managing to convey that sense of power.
-With that said, the movie has a lot of stumbles to it as well. The exposition is ridiculously clumsy at times and there is a really bziarre plot hole in the film. So there is a world which had the Anti-Life Equation and where Darkseid was defeated, but apparently the Apokalips crew has forgotten which world it is somehow. Yet they know they lost the Mother Boxes on that world and know that the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but only realize that Earth is the world that repelled Darkseid after Steppenwolfe tells them that. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Fortunately didn't bother me at all.
-On Steppenwolfe, while he was still a generic comic book movie villain, I thought this version managed to give him a lot more depth as I got the character and motivations surprisingly better.
-Continuing on that note, it isn't difficult to understand why majority of the actors involved wanted this version to be released as they are allowed to do more here, wtih one notable exception, and have far more impactful character moments.
-Still the first Martian Manhunter cameo was really dumb. Not only that, it felt like a big misstep as the Martha/Lois scene before that was actually really emotionally powerful.
-"You have a satellite?" "I have six."
-Barry's final run was epic. Hell, the whole final fight concept and choreography was excellent and managed to sideline characters in a way that wasn't Clark leaving a massive fight to big brother Barry.
-On that note, this was something baffled me. Comparing the original and this version makes it abundantly clear how much Johns influenced the original theater release as evidenced by the lack of those weird Superman fawning scenes in this version. Seriously, I sighted out of relief when they didn't have that bizarre 'You think you could beat me' scene between Clark and Bruce here. Now that makes sense, but what I couldn't figure out it is that Johns absolutely loves Barry, but the Flash was so much better here and allowed to do more. Like seriously that final run.
-I will never stop shipping Bruce and Diana. While it will never get fulfilled in this film series, at least it was nicely set up.
-What genuinely shocked me was that Bruce being suicidal arc was completley from Whedon and Johns. It had the best emotional scene in the theater version, the talk between Bruce and Diana, but still as an arc it was a really weird one which I had assumed was from Snyder.
-To return to the comparison between the theater version and this cut, what makes the theater cut so astonishing looking back now is that it made almost every scene worse. Like they actively cut and added to all action scenes stuff that made them inferior. It is such an accomplishment.
-The only note I will make on Whedon, despite there being a lot to be said because of this version and recent allegations, is in comparison to Snyder. To put it simply, Whedon is nowhere the level Snyder is on in capturing superpowered action. Actually I would put Snyder as among the best when it comes to that specific skill as his ability to really give that sense of power to those scenes is genuiinely impressive.
-Real sad we will never get that Batman/Deathstroke film as it would have been dope. Having written that, the Knightmare stuff was superweird as that was apparently the only new scene Snyder shot after his cut was greenlit. Which means that the only thing Snyder added was a cliffhanger scene that will never be resolved. I'm conflicted on that as on one hand it is stupid, but on the other hand I can't help but respect that level of committment.
-With all that positivity, there is something that does leave me conflicted. The toxicity for and against Snyder, and his DC films, is a huge problem in online discussion. It also cannot be denied that the fact that there were some pretty questionable actions by the fanbase that wanted the Snyder cut released that led to it now being available. This isn't to justify what they did, but rather a part of me feels torn on enjoying something that is born out of such poisoneous fruit.
-Rotten Tomatoes score is at the time of writing at 77% and there's a lot of good buzz on it, at least based on what I've seen. From the critical stand point, this had to exceed WB's expectations, which is a good signal when they think of similar projects in the future.
With that I end and would love to hear others thought on this as they get around watching it. Apologies on the many words, hopefully at least a few of them made sense. And seriously, I loved this movie so much.
no subject
That said, you raise a good point about the AT&T/Time Warner merger. Having been in multiple companies and industries undergoing transformative change and mergers - I can say from experience - that's toxic in of itself. People do not tend to behave well when they are scared of losing their job, or feel that their job will change completely without their input. A chaotic work place tends to lead to hostility and bad behavior all around.
It also would lead to various people in charge pushing films to be released early. They want to add them to their resumes - before they are kicked out.
no subject
I REALLY think the merger was a factor, and if some scuttlebutt is to be believed those bonuses may never had come, either due to JL's poor receipts or were delayed/nixed thanks to the DOJ threatening to nix the merger.
no subject
I don't understand why they didn't go with it. I started watching the Whedon after it - and it's very choppy action wise, and not lighter at all.
Whoever made these decisions? I hope they got fired. Because my god, what a colossal screw up.
no subject
Wonder if the whole Knightmare vision/Bad Future was a sticking point? IF that was the point why not just as you said, edit it out and release it, even easier once Snyder left. Why re-shoot the whole darn thing?!
Agreed on the "Dear God heads need to roll into baskets for this"
no subject
Snyder has two flaws - he's not a writer, and he's not that good a plotter. Having seen it now - I'd saw that the visuals make up for the dialogue (which there isn't much of to matter). And it is better plotted than I expected - and MoS, BvS and JL work as a trilogy. With Wonder Woman as a nice side movie.
Wonder if the whole Knightmare vision/Bad Future was a sticking point? IF that was the point why not just as you said, edit it out and release it, even easier once Snyder left. Why re-shoot the whole darn thing?!
I wonder too. Because that would explain a few things. But...again, like you said, why not just edit that out? Why did they have to re-shoot the whole thing? If you edited out both Cyborg and Batman's Knightmares - that would have cut the running time down to at least three hours. Also cut all of the Epilogue. Because the Epilogue isn't needed either.
Having rewatched Batman vs. Superman Ultimate Edition - I noticed something that I don't remember seeing in the theaterical version (it may have been there - I just don't remember it) - which was Batman's Knightmare about the Flash coming to him from the future and telling him that Lois was the key. He probably felt that he needed to connect to that bit? (shrugs). Still they could have easily edited that out after Snyder left?
Having seen the Snyder cut and having started to re-watch the Whedon version on HBO Max - afterwards, I'm even more baffled by what they did.
no subject
The Flash story you are thinking about is called 'Flashpoint' and was originally a comic story and AU where Flash changes the world for the worse and eventually fixes it but its almost but not quite the same as it was. Its been bandied about post the JL disaster as a way to 'reset' the DCEU as one of the MANY plots for the much delayed Flash Solo Film which needs a three volume book series to cover all the production troubles THAT film has.
You know what I want to see now?
Snyder's original 2 hour 20 minute cut and compare that to the Whedon version that I think would be a better 'Apples to Apples' comparison. I'd like to see what Snyder decided to edit out himself and try to figure out what make the Execs to damn twitchy about it.
no subject
Interesting, because in the Snyder version, Lois is already there - and jumps in front of Bruce - stopping Clark's post resurrection rampage (he's thisclose to killing Bruce). It's actually a nice flip side of when she stops Bruce from killing Clark in Batman vs. Superman. Snyder has some nice flips there.
I was trying to remember if he had a post resurrection rampage in the other film.
You know what I want to see now?
Snyder's original 2 hour 20 minute cut and compare that to the Whedon version that I think would be a better 'Apples to Apples' comparison. I'd like to see what Snyder decided to edit out himself and try to figure out what make the Execs to damn twitchy about it.
You and me both. I'm thinking all film geeks may want to? I'm really curious why they spent so much money to reshoot that film - when they could have just gone with what they already had?
I know they weren't happy with Whedon's final film - but at that point, had no choice but to go with it.
But my god, the Snyder cut is so much better. (I should point out that I did not hate Whedon's cut. I thought it was okay, it had some good moments, but was very jarring and choppy, and the CGI didn't work for me in places.) Considering the Snyder cut is somewhat bloated in places, and has a lot of added Batman content that...well feels indulgent, that is saying something. But is a better film.
no subject
Yes, that's the film Ray Fisher claims he was fired from and is blaming Walter Hamada for.
DC/WB has had a lot of problems with its film franchises. It can sort of give Fox a run for its money with the problems on the X-men and Fantastic Four films. Apparently Bryan Singer was a nightmare.
no subject
Talk about a learning experience and 'trial by fire' Many credit his early days there as giving him what he needed to run the MCU so well.
The Flash film was due out in 2018 and has been through 4 directors (I think...I lost count somewhere), 2-3 writers and at least not to mention other delays caused by Miller's role in the (maybe Dead in the Water) Fantastic Beasts films, and that is all separate from Fisher's involvement which is yet another bizarre mess, he claims he was fired while other sources state that his people were still working out the details about his role in the film when he tweeted that he'd "Never work on a film with Hamada at the head" WB took that as a resignation and walked away from the table, then it became "I was fired". WTH?