NS: The Snyder Cut Justice League movie

[lucean]

As most here in this fine community are without a doubt aware, the Snyder Cut version of the Justice League movie came out on HBO Max today, in the full glory of four hours. Having just finished It, I decided to create a discussion post here about it while posting some of my thoughts on it.

Before digging deeper in to the movie itself, a couple of caveats. First of all, I really like both Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman, so Snyder's sensibilities works for me. Second, while I was fine with the original Justice League when I first saw it, but as time has gone by, I've found myself disliking more and more. It is a film that aims to be okay and that emptiness at the heart of it really became heavier for me in retrospect. Still I realize there are people who like it, nothing away from that.

So with that to this version of the movie itself and I will begin the discussion by a simple statement. I FUCKING LOVED THIS FUCKING MOVIE. Now that I have that off my chest, to more collected points.

-This movie is a weird success as it is in structure in many ways the same movie as the original Justice League movie, but almost every scene feels better here. Some of is just the additional depth majority of characters are given here, but it has a flow that isn't the original. However, the most important aspect is that here everyone in the Justice League feel absolutely epic and like a god with the action sequences espeically managing to convey that sense of power.

-With that said, the movie has a lot of stumbles to it as well. The exposition is ridiculously clumsy at times and there is a really bziarre plot hole in the film. So there is a world which had the Anti-Life Equation and where Darkseid was defeated, but apparently the Apokalips crew has forgotten which world it is somehow. Yet they know they lost the Mother Boxes on that world and know that the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but only realize that Earth is the world that repelled Darkseid after Steppenwolfe tells them that. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Fortunately didn't bother me at all.

-On Steppenwolfe, while he was still a generic comic book movie villain, I thought this version managed to give him a lot more depth as I got the character and motivations surprisingly better.

-Continuing on that note, it isn't difficult to understand why majority of the actors involved wanted this version to be released as they are allowed to do more here, wtih one notable exception, and have far more impactful character moments.

-Still the first Martian Manhunter cameo was really dumb. Not only that, it felt like a big misstep as the Martha/Lois scene before that was actually really emotionally powerful.

-"You have a satellite?" "I have six."

-Barry's final run was epic. Hell, the whole final fight concept and choreography was excellent and managed to sideline characters in a way that wasn't Clark leaving a massive fight to big brother Barry.

-On that note, this was something baffled me. Comparing the original and this version makes it abundantly clear how much Johns influenced the original theater release as evidenced by the lack of those weird Superman fawning scenes in this version. Seriously, I sighted out of relief when they didn't have that bizarre 'You think you could beat me' scene between Clark and Bruce here. Now that makes sense, but what I couldn't figure out it is that Johns absolutely loves Barry, but the Flash was so much better here and allowed to do more. Like seriously that final run.

-I will never stop shipping Bruce and Diana. While it will never get fulfilled in this film series, at least it was nicely set up.

-What genuinely shocked me was that Bruce being suicidal arc was completley from Whedon and Johns. It had the best emotional scene in the theater version, the talk between Bruce and Diana, but still as an arc it was a really weird one which I had assumed was from Snyder.

-To return to the comparison between the theater version and this cut, what makes the theater cut so astonishing looking back now is that it made almost every scene worse. Like they actively cut and added to all action scenes stuff that made them inferior. It is such an accomplishment.

-The only note I will make on Whedon, despite there being a lot to be said because of this version and recent allegations, is in comparison to Snyder. To put it simply, Whedon is nowhere the level Snyder is on in capturing superpowered action. Actually I would put Snyder as among the best when it comes to that specific skill as his ability to really give that sense of power to those scenes is genuiinely impressive.

-Real sad we will never get that Batman/Deathstroke film as it would have been dope. Having written that, the Knightmare stuff was superweird as that was apparently the only new scene Snyder shot after his cut was greenlit. Which means that the only thing Snyder added was a cliffhanger scene that will never be resolved. I'm conflicted on that as on one hand it is stupid, but on the other hand I can't help but respect that level of committment.

-With all that positivity, there is something that does leave me conflicted. The toxicity for and against Snyder, and his DC films, is a huge problem in online discussion. It also cannot be denied that the fact that there were some pretty questionable actions by the fanbase that wanted the Snyder cut released that led to it now being available. This isn't to justify what they did, but rather a part of me feels torn on enjoying something that is born out of such poisoneous fruit.

-Rotten Tomatoes score is at the time of writing at 77% and there's a lot of good buzz on it, at least based on what I've seen. From the critical stand point, this had to exceed WB's expectations, which is a good signal when they think of similar projects in the future.

With that I end and would love to hear others thought on this as they get around watching it. Apologies on the many words, hopefully at least a few of them made sense. And seriously, I loved this movie so much.

Comments

[cyberghostface]

Haven't seen it yet but I'm just happy for Snyder and co. (specifically Ray Fisher) that they've been vindicated with this. The establishment has been effectively trying to bury this and trying to convince us that this was some unwatchable mess so for a four hour cut to be as well-received as it has is gratifying.

[jlbarnett]

I have not and will not watch either version but why are you surprised about a suicidal hero in a work Whedon did? He did it to both Buffy and Angel.

[mazway_75]

I agree the first Manhunter cameo is rough and obviously it wouldn't take long for Lois to be thanking Martha and her going "what are you talking about?" The latter one was better.

Overall...I don't know. I think some stuff is stronger but clear Snyder went overboard giving so much freedom to drag stuff out (Aquaman in the village) yet some story beats better and a notable tone.

So, maybe in another world, had Snyder been able to finish the theatrical cut, we'd be looking at a different DCEU but hearing some of his sequel plans makes me happy we never got to see it all done.

At least now we can finally hear the fanboys shutting up about it for a while.

[akodo_rokku]

So if I detested Man of Steel so thoroughly that I wrote off the entire DCEU until after I heard good reviews of Wonder Woman I should give this a pass.

[dan_ingram]

Honestly, having seen both Joss' and Snyder's, I can understand now why Joss did what he did, overall.

The Snyder cut was better, certainly, but it had the advantage of not being edited down like Joss'

[dcbanacek]

I liked this much, much more than the Whedon version. To me it felt more like what an epic Justice League movie should have been. Instead of the "Squadron Supreme" that Whedon made them into. The one good scene that Whedon's version had that I liked was the "Save one person. Then you'll know."

Bruce not being a suicidal wreck, Barry showing just how powerful he actually can be and that this is a guy starting out who isn't used to fighting through pain yet, the whole "So you talk to fish?" bullshit not being uttered (come on, Joss really?), Arthur's kind of the same but his solo movie worked on his issues, Diana was about the same, they actually explained what Victor could do (helping those who had no idea who he was), Clark's returned was handled better in my opinion and his suiting up scene with the voiceovers was very well done and they improved Steppenwolf and had a decent set-up for Darkseid's return. The second Martian Manhunter scene was the better one. The first raises too many questions.

What surprised me was the amount of humor that was in this version. Yes, primarily because of the Flash but other things as well. Especially the scene were the League fights Clark (not really a spoiler) and the Flash running noticing Supes eyeballing and freaking out about it will always be the funniest thing to me.

What I wonder is what would have been edited out to get to it to a more reasonable, for theatres, runtime.

[cricharddavies]

Fortunately, it seems that Snyder despises his toxic fan base as much as he despises bright colors, based on some statements that have had me smiling ever since I heard them. I do so love it when the powers of darkness fight each other.

[shadowkat]

Thank you for the review. I've been reading the reviews here and there. They are mixed - which is to be expected. Snyder isn't for everyone. Snyder kind of reminds me of a geek/poor man's take on Terence Malick - to be honest - into visuals more than plot or story or dialogue. (Not that it isn't there - and from your review above - it may be more there than I thought from other reviews.)

I've not seen it yet - that's my current plan for the weekend. Although I may space it out a bit.

Having seen all of Snyder's films (with a few exceptions) and all of Whedon's - I honestly don't think those two director's styles work well together at all. That was my difficulty with the Whedon version of Justice League - it was jarring. Whedon isn't really a director so much as a screen-writer and television writer. And I honestly think he works better as a television writer - smaller scale, and more conversation. He can't do big action scenes well - at all. All you have to do is watch the Avengers/Avengers AoU and compare that to Thor:Ragnarock, when the Russo's started to take over. The Russo's have a good grasp of cinematic action sequences. Whedon sucks at action sequences - he's at his best when he's doing smaller character moments or a big emotional character moment - such as that scene he wrote between Bruce and Diana that you mentioned. That's his strength.
And that stuff often works better in television than film - because it requires more build-up to get there. An example of Whedon's brilliance is The Body episode on Buffy and possibly HUSH.

Snyder in marked contrast is excellent a large action sequences and creating visual paintings on the screen. He's not great at dialogue (not necessarily horrible). But he is a painter, his background is in fine arts and painting, he thinks visually. And wants to use film to play out a graphic novel. Alot of what the Russos did in MCU was in a way grabbed from Snyder - who started the whole slow motion action paintings, where you freeze frame on a character. I think Snyder did it in 300, and it was also done by Ang Lee in his take on the Incredible Hulk (which does have interesting visuals.)

What Snyder and Whedon unfortunately have in common - is neither are very good at plotting, or continuity. That's been a problem I've had with Whedon throughout his works - he is a horrible plotter. Snyder, from your review, and my memory, isn't much better.

Which kind of begs the question - why on earth did Johns and Berg hire Whedon of all people to cut and complete a Snyder film?

I know they wanted something lighter - but it was kind of too late at that point. I mean they hired Snyder because he was similar in style to Christopher Nolan. If they didn't like the direction Snyder was going after Batman vs. Superman, why not scrap it there?

I really don't understand what WB was thinking. Nor do I understand why they hired Whedon - considering they hated his Wonder Woman script. And Whedon isn't a DC guy - he's Marvel. Whedon doesn't get the characters, he's not written for them previously...it made no sense. While with the Avengers - Whedon was a huge Marvel fan. He even wrote for the comics, and worked on scripts for some of the films prior to The Avengers. It would be like having Snyder direct Avengers Age of Ultron.

[tinygaylaura]

I have not seen the Snyder Cut so I won't comment on that here but I will say that I'm actually glad the Batman vs Deathstroke movie will not be happening because apparently the plot was just going to be "Deathstroke kills all the people Bruce loves, Bruce goes on roaring rampage of revenge" and I'm both very sick of the overwhelming bleakness of stories like that and also I worry about which characters would be carelessly killed off/fridged just to show Deathstroke is For Serious Yo in this story

[leahandillyana]

That film was was a disappointment and I held no hopes for it to begin with. The story was identical to the theatrical release, with the exception of young Darkseid leading the past invasion instead of Steppenwolf and some backstory and character developement for new characters, and of course the epilogue, but otherwise it's less than a remake. It's a second viewing of the movie I disliked the first time.

[filthysize]

It's been a kind of surreal couple of days.

Film critics I respect writing glowing reviews of a Zack Snyder film and geek youtuber bros I hate turning on him for saying he doesn't want to be affiliated with them because he thinks hate has no place in fandom.

[didiji]

As a friend reminded me, there's this quote from Deadpool that sums very well my feelings for the Synder Cut:
“So dark. Are you sure you’re not from the DC universe?” :)

[blueprintstyles]

I really enjoyed this movie, like a lot. Everyone felt a lot more genuine, the action was better, and flash felt more of an equal member than a kid sidekick. This really made me want a Cyborg film, hope I get to see it someday. Really loved the Knightmare scene, glad that society line was just for the trailer. Did anyone else think Jared Leto was channelling a little Jim Carrey?

The Snyder Cut

[ladymidath]

While I didn't hate the Wheadon version I have to say, I freaking loved the Snyder cut. It was epic in every way. The battle scenes were spectacular, the characters were more fleshed out and the comedic elements didn't feel forced and had a more natural flow. I am not going to go into spoilers here but finally were got a decent Jared Leto Joker, and the interaction with Batman hit all my fangirl sweet spots. This is what I wanted to see and Zack Snyder delivered.