NS: The Snyder Cut Justice League movie
Mar. 18th, 2021 07:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lucean posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
scans_dailyAs most here in this fine community are without a doubt aware, the Snyder Cut version of the Justice League movie came out on HBO Max today, in the full glory of four hours. Having just finished It, I decided to create a discussion post here about it while posting some of my thoughts on it.
Before digging deeper in to the movie itself, a couple of caveats. First of all, I really like both Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman, so Snyder's sensibilities works for me. Second, while I was fine with the original Justice League when I first saw it, but as time has gone by, I've found myself disliking more and more. It is a film that aims to be okay and that emptiness at the heart of it really became heavier for me in retrospect. Still I realize there are people who like it, nothing away from that.
So with that to this version of the movie itself and I will begin the discussion by a simple statement. I FUCKING LOVED THIS FUCKING MOVIE. Now that I have that off my chest, to more collected points.
-This movie is a weird success as it is in structure in many ways the same movie as the original Justice League movie, but almost every scene feels better here. Some of is just the additional depth majority of characters are given here, but it has a flow that isn't the original. However, the most important aspect is that here everyone in the Justice League feel absolutely epic and like a god with the action sequences espeically managing to convey that sense of power.
-With that said, the movie has a lot of stumbles to it as well. The exposition is ridiculously clumsy at times and there is a really bziarre plot hole in the film. So there is a world which had the Anti-Life Equation and where Darkseid was defeated, but apparently the Apokalips crew has forgotten which world it is somehow. Yet they know they lost the Mother Boxes on that world and know that the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but only realize that Earth is the world that repelled Darkseid after Steppenwolfe tells them that. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Fortunately didn't bother me at all.
-On Steppenwolfe, while he was still a generic comic book movie villain, I thought this version managed to give him a lot more depth as I got the character and motivations surprisingly better.
-Continuing on that note, it isn't difficult to understand why majority of the actors involved wanted this version to be released as they are allowed to do more here, wtih one notable exception, and have far more impactful character moments.
-Still the first Martian Manhunter cameo was really dumb. Not only that, it felt like a big misstep as the Martha/Lois scene before that was actually really emotionally powerful.
-"You have a satellite?" "I have six."
-Barry's final run was epic. Hell, the whole final fight concept and choreography was excellent and managed to sideline characters in a way that wasn't Clark leaving a massive fight to big brother Barry.
-On that note, this was something baffled me. Comparing the original and this version makes it abundantly clear how much Johns influenced the original theater release as evidenced by the lack of those weird Superman fawning scenes in this version. Seriously, I sighted out of relief when they didn't have that bizarre 'You think you could beat me' scene between Clark and Bruce here. Now that makes sense, but what I couldn't figure out it is that Johns absolutely loves Barry, but the Flash was so much better here and allowed to do more. Like seriously that final run.
-I will never stop shipping Bruce and Diana. While it will never get fulfilled in this film series, at least it was nicely set up.
-What genuinely shocked me was that Bruce being suicidal arc was completley from Whedon and Johns. It had the best emotional scene in the theater version, the talk between Bruce and Diana, but still as an arc it was a really weird one which I had assumed was from Snyder.
-To return to the comparison between the theater version and this cut, what makes the theater cut so astonishing looking back now is that it made almost every scene worse. Like they actively cut and added to all action scenes stuff that made them inferior. It is such an accomplishment.
-The only note I will make on Whedon, despite there being a lot to be said because of this version and recent allegations, is in comparison to Snyder. To put it simply, Whedon is nowhere the level Snyder is on in capturing superpowered action. Actually I would put Snyder as among the best when it comes to that specific skill as his ability to really give that sense of power to those scenes is genuiinely impressive.
-Real sad we will never get that Batman/Deathstroke film as it would have been dope. Having written that, the Knightmare stuff was superweird as that was apparently the only new scene Snyder shot after his cut was greenlit. Which means that the only thing Snyder added was a cliffhanger scene that will never be resolved. I'm conflicted on that as on one hand it is stupid, but on the other hand I can't help but respect that level of committment.
-With all that positivity, there is something that does leave me conflicted. The toxicity for and against Snyder, and his DC films, is a huge problem in online discussion. It also cannot be denied that the fact that there were some pretty questionable actions by the fanbase that wanted the Snyder cut released that led to it now being available. This isn't to justify what they did, but rather a part of me feels torn on enjoying something that is born out of such poisoneous fruit.
-Rotten Tomatoes score is at the time of writing at 77% and there's a lot of good buzz on it, at least based on what I've seen. From the critical stand point, this had to exceed WB's expectations, which is a good signal when they think of similar projects in the future.
With that I end and would love to hear others thought on this as they get around watching it. Apologies on the many words, hopefully at least a few of them made sense. And seriously, I loved this movie so much.
Before digging deeper in to the movie itself, a couple of caveats. First of all, I really like both Man of Steel and Batman Vs Superman, so Snyder's sensibilities works for me. Second, while I was fine with the original Justice League when I first saw it, but as time has gone by, I've found myself disliking more and more. It is a film that aims to be okay and that emptiness at the heart of it really became heavier for me in retrospect. Still I realize there are people who like it, nothing away from that.
So with that to this version of the movie itself and I will begin the discussion by a simple statement. I FUCKING LOVED THIS FUCKING MOVIE. Now that I have that off my chest, to more collected points.
-This movie is a weird success as it is in structure in many ways the same movie as the original Justice League movie, but almost every scene feels better here. Some of is just the additional depth majority of characters are given here, but it has a flow that isn't the original. However, the most important aspect is that here everyone in the Justice League feel absolutely epic and like a god with the action sequences espeically managing to convey that sense of power.
-With that said, the movie has a lot of stumbles to it as well. The exposition is ridiculously clumsy at times and there is a really bziarre plot hole in the film. So there is a world which had the Anti-Life Equation and where Darkseid was defeated, but apparently the Apokalips crew has forgotten which world it is somehow. Yet they know they lost the Mother Boxes on that world and know that the Mother Boxes are on Earth, but only realize that Earth is the world that repelled Darkseid after Steppenwolfe tells them that. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me. Fortunately didn't bother me at all.
-On Steppenwolfe, while he was still a generic comic book movie villain, I thought this version managed to give him a lot more depth as I got the character and motivations surprisingly better.
-Continuing on that note, it isn't difficult to understand why majority of the actors involved wanted this version to be released as they are allowed to do more here, wtih one notable exception, and have far more impactful character moments.
-Still the first Martian Manhunter cameo was really dumb. Not only that, it felt like a big misstep as the Martha/Lois scene before that was actually really emotionally powerful.
-"You have a satellite?" "I have six."
-Barry's final run was epic. Hell, the whole final fight concept and choreography was excellent and managed to sideline characters in a way that wasn't Clark leaving a massive fight to big brother Barry.
-On that note, this was something baffled me. Comparing the original and this version makes it abundantly clear how much Johns influenced the original theater release as evidenced by the lack of those weird Superman fawning scenes in this version. Seriously, I sighted out of relief when they didn't have that bizarre 'You think you could beat me' scene between Clark and Bruce here. Now that makes sense, but what I couldn't figure out it is that Johns absolutely loves Barry, but the Flash was so much better here and allowed to do more. Like seriously that final run.
-I will never stop shipping Bruce and Diana. While it will never get fulfilled in this film series, at least it was nicely set up.
-What genuinely shocked me was that Bruce being suicidal arc was completley from Whedon and Johns. It had the best emotional scene in the theater version, the talk between Bruce and Diana, but still as an arc it was a really weird one which I had assumed was from Snyder.
-To return to the comparison between the theater version and this cut, what makes the theater cut so astonishing looking back now is that it made almost every scene worse. Like they actively cut and added to all action scenes stuff that made them inferior. It is such an accomplishment.
-The only note I will make on Whedon, despite there being a lot to be said because of this version and recent allegations, is in comparison to Snyder. To put it simply, Whedon is nowhere the level Snyder is on in capturing superpowered action. Actually I would put Snyder as among the best when it comes to that specific skill as his ability to really give that sense of power to those scenes is genuiinely impressive.
-Real sad we will never get that Batman/Deathstroke film as it would have been dope. Having written that, the Knightmare stuff was superweird as that was apparently the only new scene Snyder shot after his cut was greenlit. Which means that the only thing Snyder added was a cliffhanger scene that will never be resolved. I'm conflicted on that as on one hand it is stupid, but on the other hand I can't help but respect that level of committment.
-With all that positivity, there is something that does leave me conflicted. The toxicity for and against Snyder, and his DC films, is a huge problem in online discussion. It also cannot be denied that the fact that there were some pretty questionable actions by the fanbase that wanted the Snyder cut released that led to it now being available. This isn't to justify what they did, but rather a part of me feels torn on enjoying something that is born out of such poisoneous fruit.
-Rotten Tomatoes score is at the time of writing at 77% and there's a lot of good buzz on it, at least based on what I've seen. From the critical stand point, this had to exceed WB's expectations, which is a good signal when they think of similar projects in the future.
With that I end and would love to hear others thought on this as they get around watching it. Apologies on the many words, hopefully at least a few of them made sense. And seriously, I loved this movie so much.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-21 07:24 pm (UTC)It's eye-opening to see it back to back. I take snatches, about fifteen minutes each - and it blows my mind how stark the differences are. I honestly didn't think the Whedon cut was sexist or racist, until I see what Snyder originally did. (And I've seen Snyder films - I'd certainly not call them politically correct or inclusive - but his Justice League cut is inclusive.) And, it Whedon's is racist and sexist in how it reshot those scenes. I was shocked when I saw it, I would never have believed it - if I didn't just see it with my own eyes.
Another thing that I just picked up on, in watching the segments where Diana tells Bruce about the mother boxes, and Arthur is talking to his people about what is going on...is how Whedon ditched the mythology completely. It's a rich mythology - and there was lot in the flashback sequence. Instead of spending time there - Whedon creates a scene with Bruce and Diana walking in along a sunny river discussing what occurred. A lot of the mythos is lost. Such "the betrayal of the Amazons", "The Atlanteans leaving the world of man behind" and the division is removed completely. Also we lose why the Amazon's sent the flaming sword - it was so Diana would take the sword and go into the temple to see what it meant. She sees the invasion of Darkseid. Then she approaches Bruce and explains it, it's also Diana who tells Bruce they'll need to step up their efforts for the recruitment.
The two films are about different things. Whedon's version is just about "power", while Snyder's is about so much more than that - his is about unity, while still having one's individual agency. Darkseid wants to unify the worlds in darkness, no agency, everyone enslaved. I'm not sure Whedon understood what Snyder's theme was? Or cared? Snyder had a lot to say - and all of that is lost in Whedon's version - all of it.
For a while I thought Whedon handled the CGI better - but I just discovered that I was wrong. Snyder's version is better. The villain is more frightening, less comical. And makes a lot more sense. It's not about a villain who wants to own you or have you love him, he just wants to redeem himself to his master, and have everyone serve Darkseid, fall into the Darkness. It's kind of deeper, more mystical.
There's more world-building here, and so much of that is dropped in the Whedon version.
Getting back to the fight with the Amazons? He not only truncated it - he changed it. It's almost comical in the Whedon version - there's no gravity to it, no suspense. Steppenwolf merely cuts an opening in their stronghold and follows them by his lonesome, fighting them. In the Snyder, the Amazons sacrifice themselves for the cause - they seal off the stronghold and send it, themselves, Steppenwolf and the paramen into the sea. It's epic, and tragic, and a beautiful piece of cinematography. The Amazon Queen watches as it and half the cliff tumble below.
Grieving and uncertain. Then Steppenwolf and his minions (paramen) fly out of the sea and leap after the box. That drives the tension up a notch. In the Whedon version it's hard to feel the gravity of it or the tension. Whedon's is kind of cheap and almost insulting to the Amazons in comparison to this.
yet his version has so little trust of the characters and actors that they need to spell things out.
I think it's even more than that - he doesn't trust the audience or viewer.
We don't need to be told what the boxes are - just shown. And you can convey a great deal with a visual on film, you don't need words. Bruce and Diana's awkward physical attraction which neither want to pursue - is conveyed simply with their brief touch of hands on the mouse.
And some of things he adds? The interaction between Bruce and Barry, where Barry has this long awkward speech about how he has difficulty making friends? Really? He's talking to Batman.
The line - "I need some friends" is enough right there. That's another huge difference - Zack errs on the side of too much visual, while Whedon errs on the side of too much banter or talking.
And the Flash? You are right - he truncates that character. There's a great scene that gets across what the flash is capable of, and his character - when he saves Iris. Also we see in Snyder's version more of the footage that Wayne saw - and Diana sees.
I cringe watching Whedon's version - there's a scene between Lois and Martha that doesn't work at all. It's at the Daily Planet. In the Snyder version, Lois has stopped working there. And Snyder tells us Martha's home has been foreclosed on by the Bank with one visual shot. No lengthy somewhat cringe-inducing dialogue, or an awkward and somewhat sexist interaction between Lois and a colleague in her workplace, that borders on sexual harassment. "Oh you have female source?" And Lois rolls her eyes. Martha asks if that's true. Lois says no, it's really a male source but he doesn't need to know that. (Why? Why is that in there? It does nothing to serve the story. And it's out of character. Lois would be shut down after Clark's death and take a leave of absence, which is what she does in the Snyder film.) I felt sorry for Amy Adams and Diane Lane.
Cyborg? Oh, I know why Ray Fisher hates Whedon's version of the film. And fought him. I totally get it now. Whedon adds a lot that isn't necessary and removed a lot that was. In Snyder's version - we get Cyborg's complete back story - he's not used as the mysterious "is the black guy in the hood a good guy or a monster" trope, like in Whedon's version. (That's actually Superman's role in the Snyderverse - which is far more interesting and far less cliche and racist.) Snyder shows us how brilliant Cyborg is, how he can see inside data systems - and how his father conveys that to him. And he does it all visually. Whedon tries to use dialogue to do it - and it is clumsy, and doesn't quite work. I care deeply about Cyborg in Snyder's version - I don't care at all about Cyborg in Whedon's. Same with Barry Allen's Flash. It's hard to care about Whedon's characters, while I do care about Snyder's.
And I agree it is odd - that a television writer who is know for character driven stories - and not great at plotting, would do a plot-oriented movie and cut out all of the character moments.
Some things - I can see why they cut them, others? And why did they add the things they did? Also, why did the change the villain completely and the mythology? It's not that dark. And you can tell the different film styles - Whedons makes the actors faces too smooth in places - Ben Afflecks wrinkles are gone in some scenes, as are Connie Nielsen's - who plays Diana's mother. There's inconsistencies in Whedon's digitization. His film feels rushed, while Snyder's feels thoughtful, and fully realized.
Oh, and Whedon took out the beautiful visual sequence where Aguaman saves the fisherman and descends into the see. It's amazing. That's gone in the Whedon version.
I could go on...and on and on..and I've only compared the first thirty minutes of the two films.
Oh, well, I know understand why Zack Snyder wishes the Whedon version didn't exist. And I do agree with you - Whedon is done as a blockbuster film director or fixer after this.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-21 09:17 pm (UTC)To give an example, the Bruce/Diana stuff. This version doesn't explicitly tell you that, but instead trusts small moments and the actors to convey that connection there. It actually even builds on it during the final assault as it is Diana who twice saves Bruce's from Parademon attacks as he drives through the city drawing their number: First it is her who cuts down the Parademons who first rip off the roof of the car and then jumps in front the car to block a shot from an energy cannon. Then once Bruce gets to the tower, she saves Diana from swarming Parademons. And there Snyder has this quick shot of Diana looking up and seeing Batman, this flawed broken man she has been working with, remind her once again how he is the greatest warrior humanity has ever produced. That brief look on Gadot's face at that moment just tells so much and it just a short moment in an already amazing action sequence.
no subject
Date: 2021-03-22 01:18 am (UTC)