sd_admin: (Default)
[personal profile] sd_admin posting in [community profile] scans_daily
First an announcement: While modbot seemed like a good idea at the time, it's proved to be unpopular with members. From now on we'll be using it only for admin posts, so that they can be edited by all members of the mod team.


We know that some members have had issues with the community and the mod team, and felt like they couldn't bring them to our attention. Here is your chance. If you've got a question, concern or suggestion about Scans Daily, here's where you can post it.

This post will be linked to in our profile, and checked regularly by the mods. Comments won't be screened, so you can suggest amongst yourselves.
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Date: 2010-07-18 07:22 pm (UTC)
wonderseal: (This takes some debating.)
From: [personal profile] wonderseal
So, I am essentially a lurker here, and I would probably be more involved but there are some things that make me timid about that.

I really love and respect that y'all want to make this a safe place for people who don't have many safe places. I don't think anyone is going to argue with that. It's a wonderful thing. And I absolutely understand that when someone is offended or hurt by something, they react viscerally. That's fine, you know. Everyone has their rage buttons. However, I'm slightly terrified that I will say something that offends someone, will have no preconceived notion of how it is offensive before I say it (which doesn't excuse the offense or privilege, but still happens, and I can still feel really bad about it), and be verbally abused; not corrected.

As far as I can tell, verbal abuse as a visceral reaction is left untempered. I really, really understand that how a person reacts to something initially is their prerogative and it's legit. I understand that. But I think that common civility should be rewarded. It's sticky, I know. You don't want to oppress the people who are hurt, but in doing so, you enable a different kind of hurtful interaction.

Look, if I say something that people find offensive and they're offended, it is almost certain that I didn't mean it, and it is absolute that I will try to understand where that hurt is coming from so I don't do it again. However, it's very difficult to do that when the offended party is allowed to be as verbally abusive and reactive as possible.

It's a sticky topic, and I've probably screwed up talking about it. The fact of the matter is that you can't have a positive community when one group is afraid of talking and the other group refuses to listen, no matter which group is which.

Date: 2010-07-18 07:34 pm (UTC)
supergirl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] supergirl
I suppose my comment could be an addendum to this. I'm not sure how to couch it less bluntly, so I apologize if this comes off pissy: I come here for comic books, not (admittedly well-researched) lectures on civil rights at every offensive implication. I understand that the community identifies as LGBTQ-friendly -- this is awesome! I agree! there aren't enough comic book forums that can say the same! -- but when a space that used to revel in the Super Dictionary begins to consistently remind me that there are those who froth at the mouth at the very mention of bondage!Robin, and those who froth at the mouth at the slightest mention that someone does not like bondage!Robin, well.

I come here to forget the world can be an intolerant place. Why can't an apparent offender by talked with in private as opposed to making a community-wide post?

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But... this is a tone argument

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Re: But... this is a tone argument

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Re: But... this is a tone argument

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Re: But... this is a tone argument

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Re: But... this is a tone argument

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Date: 2010-07-18 08:55 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
I know that not everybody is on LJ but it strikes me as odd that there'll be posts here where the main point is news and then a tenuously related scan for legality.

Is it worth encouraging these to NSD?

Date: 2010-07-19 04:40 am (UTC)
schmevil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] schmevil
As a member, I'd like to see fewer for legality posts on Scans. They'd get a great reception on NoScans, with the opportunity of more thoughtful discussion.

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Date: 2010-07-18 10:17 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mullon
Sometimes I wish it were easier to tell if something is a comment or a reply. Like, you can tell when the reply is right below the comment, but it gets harder when you scroll down a bit.

Date: 2010-07-18 10:31 pm (UTC)
julian: Picture of Julian Street. (Default)
From: [personal profile] julian
That's basically difficult to manage once it gets to over 100 or so commments, but there's always http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2140982.html?style=light -- I find it makes the threading easier to figure.

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Date: 2010-07-19 02:41 am (UTC)
galateus: Zuko facepalms. (facepalm zuko)
From: [personal profile] galateus
The icon styling here is really annoying, for at least two reasons:
  • They stick out like 40 pixels to the left of the border of the comment they belong to, so if it's a 'root' comment (not in reply to any other comment), the left 40 percent of the icon gets cut off completely if your screen isn't wider than... *checks CSS rules* 960px. (Why is that hard-coded? Is it for the banner up top? There has to be a better, more flexible way...)
  • Also, they've all got "width: 100px; height: 100px" set on them, even though that's the *maximum* size and a lot of people have smaller ones so they end up hideously stretched to fit the square 100x100 box. Can we get rid of that/switch it to max-width/max-height?

  • Edit: Oh yeah, *and*:


  • They have a very...weird relationship/overlap with the actual contents of the comment. Like the list-stylings I tried to use here: they're partly covered by the image of Zuko facepalming.
Edited Date: 2010-07-19 02:44 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-07-19 04:39 am (UTC)
schmevil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] schmevil
Not sure how we'd fix this, but we'll take a look at it.

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Date: 2010-07-19 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] refraction.livejournal.com
I completely agree with the comment/icon complaint/criticism. I'm looking at a post on NSD and it's quite obvious which comments are which (unless a thread goes epically long but those are hard to tell regardless) because the icons aren't reverse indented in a weird fashion. Having them at the same level as the the edge of the username border/comment's start would do worlds to make this more readable.

I also echo stubupdate's point about "for legality" (hell, there's now a discussion community so why is that even necessary?) and super echo the points raised in the first thread.

Date: 2010-07-19 10:43 am (UTC)
valtyr: (Infinity)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I echo the icon-stuff; posting with a weird sized icon to see if it works now.

Someone above said: I come here to forget the world can be an intolerant place. Why can't an apparent offender by talked with in private as opposed to making a community-wide post?

I have a few friends who do not come to [community profile] scans_daily because they don't like being reminded of intolerance. And what reminds them the world is an intolerant place is when people are racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic. Where do they go to discuss comics? Well, they pretty much don't. They're limited to their friendslists.

There are plenty of sites on the internet - plenty of comics sites on the internet - where you can be casually racist, use gendered slurs, call things you don't like 'gay' and no one will bat an eyelid. If you go there, you won't see lengthy fights about sexism because no one there gives a shit.

There's a thousand places for people who don't want to see sexism and racism called out and condemned. There's almost nowhere for people who don't want to see sexism or racism or homophobia or transphobia.

So I applaud the mods in their efforts to make such a place, and I hope one day they succeed sufficiently that people don't say oppressive stuff, and if they do screw up and are called out, are able to apologize and resolve to do better. Perhaps then I'll genuinely be able to say to my friends "[community profile] scans_daily is a great place, you should crosspost these great scan posts!" instead of "[community profile] scans_daily is pretty good... I mean, quite a lot of posts no one says offensive stuff... yeah, if you make a post about a comic being kind of racist you can expect a bunch of comments telling you you're over-sensitive and taking it too seriously and then telling you complaining about all the heroes being white makes you racist and - okay, maybe you shouldn't crosspost there."

Date: 2010-07-19 03:18 pm (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (zoom)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
valytr:
What would a community that these people are comfortable in look like? What would the rules need to be? And, perhaps more to the point, which of the current active members of this one would need to be expelled?

Serious question(s).

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Date: 2010-07-19 02:30 pm (UTC)
rattsu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rattsu
It is always hard to realize that sometimes things said in jest might be taken as offensive.

I mean I'm a Swede, and the whole american politically correct speech pattern is very alien to me since I am not surrounded by it daily. I'm never certain what's offensive and what's not, and I've been told more than once when I've used words or terms that might set people off. But you know what? That didn't kill me, not did it embarrass me apart from the initial facepalm reaction of 'that wasn't what I meant'. Bit by bit I've started to figure out where the boundaries are, but I'll probably step over them again from time to time. By mistake, or because the thing I said had not crossed my mind as being offensive, while it might be to somebody else. That's alright. It's no big thing.

I've always seen it as stepping on someone's foot. Some will be polite and point out that I'm standing on their foot, some will snap at me in surprise and pain, and some will explode in a rant because they had a really had day already, or really sore feet. Did I mean to step on their foot? Probably not. Do I feel the need to snap back and start ranting at them because it was an honest mistake and they overreacted? Sometimes, but what's the use? I'm clumsy, feet are sore, shit happens. I don't consider myself as having any right to be clumsy without people having the same right to be pissed about it. They're entitled. But neither will I stop walking around for fear on stepping on someone. I'd rather apologize than live in worry, an apology never harmed anybody.

Another interesting thing I've noticed: It is rarely the original 'offender' that starts the landslide into ranting, and neither is it the first person that calls them on their mistake. It is all the others that pile in, looking for a fight. Honestly, it's like a lot of people are just waiting for something to explode on.

Date: 2010-07-19 03:07 pm (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (oops)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
People looking for a fight? On the internet?

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Date: 2010-07-19 10:21 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
This probably won't sit well but I think alot of the problem with the argumentative threads about whether or not something is offensive is the policy of encouraging users to call each other out. While yes someone making an offensive statement deserves to be reprimanded on their actions encouraging community members to be the ones doing it instead of the mod team who's responsibility it is to deal with discipline of offending members causes a more hostile atmosphere.

Date: 2010-07-20 03:50 am (UTC)
recognitions: (Default)
From: [personal profile] recognitions
Well, this sure brought out all the bawwwwing privileged lurkers.

Date: 2010-07-20 04:14 am (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (zoom)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
Just a reminder to everyone: by the comm rules, this is not a personal attack and you should not be offended by it.

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recommented with better clarification, sorry

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Date: 2010-07-20 10:11 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] moneyless_jew
I used to post at the old s_d. I don't post here (until now) because I wasn't willing to pay for an account I won't really use, and it took me forever to find a shared code to sign up. Which I have now done because I've lurked here since the new s_d's inception and I find a lot of what has gone on to be absolutely ridiculous. I simply can't hold it in anymore, and I have decided to live the ultimate cliche and do this 1st-post rant. Join me, won't you?

I am gay, Jewish and I grew up disabled. I got bullshit from kids based on my minor disability, all manner of retard jokes. I have faced my share of bullshit in everyday adult life over it. But I have never been offended by any of the so-called "ableist" posts one occasionally encounters on this community. I never felt oppressed as a homosexual, or as a Jew, or anything else while at the old scans_daily. It just never occurred to me to bring my whole life into the equation; the comm was about crack-y comics and it was a GLBT-friendly space, we had an easy sense of humor about it all, and that was where we all seemed to leave it. Maybe my experience is different from others; maybe I am also deeply privileged. But I never felt oppressed at scans_daily, until scans_daily moved and took on those heady delusions of grandeur about being The Ultimate Safe Space against all forms of oppression.

The simple fact is that scans_daily's stated new ethos failed before it began. As they say above, people of all stripe are fucking terrified. There is no way to be a safe space for everyone, because in the attempting of that, you end up being a safe space for no one. Nothing is permitted, because everything is subjective, and thus everything is potentially a hot button or a trigger for someone because of personal experience and/or hardship that only they are privvy to. For the moderators to pretend that this personal subjectivity trumps everything, and negates all manner of uniform rules of shared civility and conduct, is the height of naivete and failed utopian thinking, and it leaves the entire community divided and resentful, as we see yet again in this post.

The ugly and unpalatable fact that the mods are strenuously avoiding by politely insinuating that everyone else is intolerant for not getting it, is that there has to be a line. There have to be rules, solid and concrete ones, even if sometimes a mod has to be a dick to someone whose legitimate pain or issue they sympathize with. You can't just make the rules up everyday and shuffle 'em around a little like Three Card Monte based on somebody's RL personal issue which may have little to no bearing on the latest discussion of why someone doesn't like Wonder Woman's new jacket, or why someone else thinks this character or that one is an antiquated queer stereotype.

The bottom line is that it's just the fucking Internet, people. People, be they gay, str8, trans, whatever, ALL have personal points of view, they ALL have bias, they ALL have trauma, they have pet peeves, they even occasionally have the dreaded "Privilege," a term almost as overused around here as "anti-oppression," which from what I have gathered lately has recently come to mean, "any poster who has a problem with being relentlessly bullied in a place that is afraid to deal with a firm moderation policy." Like it or not, this is first and foremost a GLBT-friendly place for people to see scans of COMIC BOOKS. That means nerds. Lots of fucking nerds, ourselves included, you and me. You're going to get nerds of all race, creed, size, shape, nationality, orientation, self-actualization, and then some. And some of those nerds are going to be a little sheltered. They're not all going to be gay, or lesbian, or bi, or transgendered, or Jewish, or differently abled, or black, or Asian, or Latino, or Native American, or whatever else. People come to scans_daily to just be people together, enjoying comic books in a liberal-minded space. THAT's how you educate, through a shared community interacting on the basis of what they have in common. Stumbling sometimes, yes, but learning from there. Not through allowing shit to devolve into a series of bullying free-for-alls under the guise of "that's how they learn, and if we don't let X tear Y a new asshole, then we're not being a safe space."

Think about it: What will the offenders who were actually insensitive and sheltered in some of the more mild cases actually learn from these recent flare-ups? Never to fucking come here again, that's what. They won't learn. They won't stick around. They'll just retreat further into generic str8 comic comms and become more ignorant. And what about the kids who lurk who are still coming to terms with themselves, whether they're gay, lesbian, bi, trans, whatever? What do any of the screaming fits and amateur lecture tours do for the closeted kid in a rural area who doesn't know how to handle or view him or herself, or others like them who are out in the world? Do you really think this shit is setting them at ease?

"Until the (personally justified) rage passes" is not a moderation policy. I feel as though s_d has begun to promote a victim mentality. The way I see it the mods have to make harsh choices about what they value more - talking about comics in a liberal environment, or creating a safe space. You can have both in fair measure, but you're going to have to make sacrifices to your vision, and most of all, you're going to have to make real rules and stick to them. Because this endless shaping and re-shaping of the rules while refusing to acknowledge the larger problems of what your flawed "ethos" is allowing in terms of poster conduct is getting really pathetic.

That's all I had to say. Fire away.

Date: 2010-07-20 10:16 am (UTC)
julian: Picture of Julian Street. (Default)
From: [personal profile] julian
What will the offenders who were actually insensitive and sheltered in some of the more mild cases actually learn from these recent flare-ups?

I will just say that I have seen examples (not here, but similar instances) of people in "more mild cases" learning. And I have seen instances of lurkers coming out of the woodwork to say that this sort of thing has been helpful to them.

If it doesn't work for you, then I sympathise. But to say that this kind of ethos works for no one and nothing is incorrect.

I do agree that shared community is /also/ a good way to learn. But it's not the only tool in the toolbox.

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Date: 2010-07-20 11:45 am (UTC)
lisaquestions: Female red Lantern spewing blood and looking angry. (pic#422411)
From: [personal profile] lisaquestions
Okay, so I have a problem with the comments on this post.

Multiple commenters are expressing anxiety, even fear, over the possibility of unknowingly saying something so offensive as to immediately piss someone off and provoke them to say mean things.in response. They want to be reassured that if they say something that offensive, that all of the responses will be as nice and polite as possible so that their own feelings won't be hurt.

I'm sorry, but this can't work. This puts all the weight on marginalized people for dealing with oppressive comments. It makes it clear that in this comm, some members are more equal than others - that privilege needs to be coddled and protected.

I don't believe that the problem is that marginalized people are too angry when responding to oppressive statements. In my experience, any response at all is commonly perceived as "too angry." I've been called on to check my tone when being as polite as possible as quickly as anyone who started with "shut the fuck up."

The problem is that people don't like to be called on their privileged bullshit. They want the implicit social contract that says it's okay to be sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic, fatphobic, ableist, and more in public or private, and that everyone present is either expected to go along with it or at least shut up about it. Those who don't let it slide? Are troublemakers, oversensitive, too angry, reading too much into it.

Intent? Intent's fucking sleight of hand. Everyone says they didn't mean it or the goddamned devil made them do it or whatever kind of excuse they can marshal to abdicate all responsibility for their fuckups. The whole point is to act like they didn't do anything wrong because they didn't know it was wrong.

Why is it that so many commenters in this post, in other posts, in the followups to the trains fail post, all made it explicitly clear that their sympathies and fears lie with the person who made the oppressive statements? That the only position they could imagine themselves in was the one of saying something offensive and being called out for it? What does that say about the people here that they can barely even acknowledge what it might be like to be on the receiving end of such abuse?

And yes, it is fucking abuse. When you say shit like that about people, it has an impact. It's another of a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand injuries, one cut after the next, and each time we're expected to let it slide because the person who slid the knife in? Didn't intend to use it?

I don't believe it's possible to have a safe space. There's too many intersections and possible clashes due to privilege, let alone anything else. I do believe it's possible to have an accountable space, and I had some faith in scans_daily as just such a space, and I hope that does not change just because some community members don't understand that when you accidentally offend someone and they ask "what the hell were you thinking?" that the best answer is probably an apology, or at least a simple "What did I just do?" and not "I didn't really do anything wrong" or recoiling in terror and fear because they can't face receiving even a fraction of what they dished out.

Date: 2010-07-20 01:09 pm (UTC)
julian: Picture of Julian Street. (Default)
From: [personal profile] julian
My basic logic is and always has been to try as best I can to listen to the meaning behind the words of the person reacting in ways that are, to me, unexpectedly combative.

And yeah, obviously, most people rarely mean to say hurtful stuff. Most people /aren't/ actively, for example, homophobic, at least not in the "bigoted person doing actively malicious things" definition of the word.

That just plain doesn't mean people can't say things that are unintentionally problematic.

But that's the thing. I can say, "That was a problematic statement," and like Lisa says, nine times out of ten, people hit the roof just as hard as if I said, "You're a racist dickwad."

Which is of course not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, "Could you think about what you just said?"

So, this is a long way of saying that I consider the "community ethos" a positive thing, and thank y'all for it.

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Date: 2010-07-20 06:10 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
About the only thing I can think of that might help without reducing the ability to call out is being quicker off the mark with thread freezes, freezing when they start going downhill.

That'll probably breed resentment too, though.

Date: 2010-07-20 07:11 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
In all fairness, at the speed of internet, when there's dozens of people posting on several threads, it's often super tough to realise that there is a situation before it's spiralled out of hand.

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Date: 2010-07-20 07:35 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Now that I have my trophy, nobody can take it away from me.

You don't all have to be bestest friends forever, but can we at least accept that you should be nice to each other when you're under Scans_Daily's roof?

You know what, I was going to say things that were rude and would likely offend, but then I thought better of it and didn't write them.

Date: 2010-07-20 08:45 pm (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
You don't all have to be bestest friends forever, but can we at least accept that you should be nice to each other when you're under Scans_Daily's roof?

I think we can all agree on that in principle. In practice, I think we should recognize that if someone says something hurtful and offensive, and someone else who was hurt and offended snaps back at the first person, it's neither helpful nor fair to turn to the second person and say, "Stop being so mean!"

(I'm not saying you said that, I just think it's important to clarify.)

Date: 2010-07-20 08:30 pm (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (oops)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
For me, it's about fear.
Not so much, as you might think, fear of making an insensitive, privileged comment that hurts someone without meaning to (though I do fear that too). No, what I fear is the worst case scenario - one that I don't think the mods considered when they made the current rule about asymmetric response.

I used to be an idealist, but the past twenty years or so, much of that spent on the internet, have just about beaten that out of me. I look at a rule like the one we have now, which appears to absolutely shield anyone engaged in "calling out" another poster, and I think, "now, if I was an unscrupulous troll, how could I abuse this?"

As things stand now, any member of this community could, in theory, dishonestly challenge another poster on their privilege. Maybe the real reason is that they don't like something else the poster said, or their name or avatar, or perhaps they just want to win the argument. Because in this community, invoking (someone else's) privilege is the accusation against which there can be no appeal. It is the trump card, the nuclear option, "Hope" in the Game of Changes, the Blazing Sword of Voltron. And if you don't think some people will go that far to win an argument or discredit or intimidate a rival, you haven't been on the internet very long.

"You are privileged, and thus your entire position is invalid."

I can't provide cites because as far as I know, it hasn't actually happened yet. But I earnestly, sincerely believe it will. The basis for my belief is human nature and the fact that there are people who will abuse the letter of any rule if given the chance. If I was an actual troll, I could have provided a practical demonstration of this. What I am is a long-time member of this community who is honestly afraid of how its principles could be perverted to shame and to silence.

Call me an alarmist if you wish, a Chicken Little without faith in the mods to administer and temper the absolute rule with judgment; but please, do not simply dismiss my concerns as the cries of a petulant, privileged infant. Not without considering that the same could be done to you.

Date: 2010-07-20 08:54 pm (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Mod Hat)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
The best I can tell you is that we evaluate incidents as they come to our attention. And should such an occasion hypothetically arise, we will use what discretion we have.

What's more, consider past instances and the negative reaction many in this community have unfortunately seen fit to give a poster who calls another out. The idea that, even in a community where such things are encouraged, calling-out is always easy for those in an oppressed position isn't a very accurate statement. I think creating an atmosphere where an oppressed poster didn't have to worry about being dogpiled for calling another member or comic out is a little more important, and perhaps in such an atmosphere the potential for abuse might possibly be higher.

Should the rule be abused, we will deal with it. That there is a possibility for abuse, I think, doesn't negate the importance of the rule.

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Date: 2010-07-21 02:47 am (UTC)
foxhack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] foxhack
I just wanted to mention, outside of all the threads arguing about the rules, that I think we might've uncovered a weird Dreamwidth bug - this post has over 330 replies, and we still haven't had the post split into two pages yet.

It might be worth reporting to the site's coders. I can't imagine that community viewers with relatively low download speeds are happy with this.

Date: 2010-07-21 02:50 am (UTC)
recognitions: (it's tough to live alone)
From: [personal profile] recognitions
I think it's all because there's only been a small number of threads, Sparky.

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Just a few thoughts.

Date: 2010-07-21 08:54 am (UTC)
jazzypom: (hellrung)
From: [personal profile] jazzypom
Before I launch into this post, allow me to indulge in a bit of history here:

I remember watching the primaries in back in 2008, and the poc I used to run with (in their comms) would say, "You have to be on guard with liberal whites, because just when you think that they are cool, they wake up one day and realise that they were born white."

Intellectually, I understood what they were saying, but now, with the suggested U turn (if this announcement and the comments are anything to go by), emotionally, it hits home and is a punch in the gut.

After last year's race fail on no scans, when one of the few persons who called out the race fail got banned, the resulting fall out became the ethos of the scans communities going forward, that if someone said offensive and got called out on it, the person who pointed it out wouldn't be punished for their tone. That was a big deal, in that for most communities, after being attacked by a comment, and then having a knee jerk reaction to the attack and then being punished by the notion of 'tone' is a double whammy, and I thought that well, if nothing else, scans_daily understood that.

Now, don't get me wrong, as a woman of colour I do understand that fandom and online comic book sites are not safe spaces. To that end, I approach the various activities accordingly. I strap my suit of metaphorical chain mail, hitch my shield to my back and walk with sword in hand. I also know that when it comes to fen of privilege, usually in my case it is white, cis-gendered, middle class women who are ~oppressed~ because they don't get the same benefits of their white male counterparts and want to stand on everyone else's shoulders to get there. Or, white males who pretty much feel besieged because 'the other' wants to get the same rights that they have pretty much enjoyed for centuries, and wondering, "Why so sensitive?"

Due to my prolonged interactions with privileged fen online, I've learned to rip rage from my posts (for those who've followed my work from 2004 to now, see how my 'rants' have given way to 'meta'), because the first thing with fen of this type, is the club of the 'Tone Argument'. My issue with the tone argument (with what wonderseal and her ilk are pushing to be reinstated right here going forward) is the insidiousness of it.

A tone argument is one of extremely bad faith; there's the lie of, "If you speak calmly and rationally, the person of privilege will listen." Bang, the onus is burdened right back to you, the person who's deeply hurt, to the point of primal rage. You to have to claw and gather the sharp edges of your anger in, try to grope for the right words, and on top of that, coach it in the right mood, because you want the person of privilege to understand, if nothing else, see? Perhaps if one person can understand, you might have an ally, so the next time something like this comes, it's not ALL up to YOU, all of the time, to say that this is wrong, and cannot stand.

All I need for someone to understand this is just to use the right tone? Okay, it's hard, and I'm hurt, and emotions are hitting me at odd angles, but I suck it up, and swallow the rage. Will my hands to stop trembling because it's important enough for me to try and watch my tone. Okay, I can do that. It's so so so hard, but I can do that.

Only for the person of privilege to miss the point anyway.

Imagine years of being a participant in this cruel pantomime, every day in some point or the other in real life and fandom, and tell me if the notion of the tone argument wouldn't be sandpaper on your soul real quick like.

To save myself (because yes, I am rescuing myself) this is where the verbal clue by four comes in, because in my experience, people don't really take you seriously, unless you get down to brass tacks and pretty much be as brutal as you can, and do a verbal cutting off at the knees, because that's the only way to stop it. It then means that if someone is lurking and sees that 'fatality' (I'm taking the lead from the histrionics of privilege here in this post), one of two things will happen: they will either think twice before typing, and contributing to the field of FAIL, or they will see your name and know to stay clear.

As someone in fandom for six years and interacting with various fen, I'm over the notion of, "Didn't mean to cause harm" or, "I wasn't thinking" and "Why so harsh?", because I've had six years of people trying to play the dozens with BS like this. Due to my experiences with fandom and fen of privilege, and yes, damn it, white fen, I pretty much take my cue from the law over here, which says that ignorance is not an excuse. I'm taking that as given and running with it.

Ignorance is NOT an excuse to engage in racist, ablelist, transphobic, homophobic activities and use the shield of intent as a means of diffusing dissent, or warding off needed criticism. Just as how I wouldn't expect a pass if I did something heinous to someone, and expect to be called out (and grateful that I am), I don't really give that to anyone, and if I can call out the fail, it means that there someone who's too hurt, who doesn't have to think about girding their loins and jumping through the loops to try and make someone understand, because someone already does - enough to know which terms insult and demean and why they shouldn't exist.

In addition, as a self identified woc (my identity is not hidden) I am well aware that unlike white women, my tears don't really have much currency in this world (online or real). I can't say, "I'm shaking and crying" and "I'm too hurt right now" and the other norms of accepted femaleness to be taken seriously. Nor do I have the option of being 'too afraid' to talk, so 'I lurk.'

When I lurk, it means that fen of privilege can say some ignorant claptrap and be supported by other fen standing shoulder to shoulder in their ignorant claptrap. It means that someone can refer to a female character as a 'tranny' and have other people coming to xie's defence, because xie 'didn't mean it'. I don't have the privilege of being silent, when it comes to fail and ignorance on my watch. More times than not, I just don't have the energy, so I have to chose my battles.

Now, if people do want to go somewhere where the fail isn't called out, that fen can ride their sparkling ponies and jostle 'the other' with their hooves, there are hundreds of other comic spaces and fandom spaces one can go to, and wake up privileged (white, cis gendered, able bodied, and engage in Moff's law like woah), and be with other people who are well aware of such, and enjoy it. Seriously, people, there are other comms.

Up to now, scans_daily was the rare place where I felt as if I didn't have to have my sword to hand as much, or ready to jump to my feet with shield in front of face ready to block, feint and punch the ogres of ignorance and intent.

Yes, I say, block, feign and punch, because fighting the fail is not akin to having one's foot stepped on, or going into a pool of piss and poo, or whatever gentle metaphor of the day is used to soothe people of privilege, so they feel good and you should feel good because they feel good. It's like being shoved, and jostled all the time. Every time you think you have found your footing, you have to dodge the swipe and point of words, and intent. It's that serious.

If scans_daily wants to go that way, of actually allowing the people of privilege to not 'feel afraid' to wallow in the fail, to display their intent because, ' It isn't what it means, honest." I'll just have to leave you lot to it, and again question myself about why I'm in fandom and comic book communities, since (again) it isn't for people like me. The way how fandom and online activities are right now, the signs for 'no coloureds/transgendered people/the other' would be welcome at this point in time, so I know which communities not to bother being a part of.
Edited (Edited to rip out the rage, spelling errors, and to clarify my position. Cheers. ) Date: 2010-07-21 09:20 am (UTC)

Re: Just a few thoughts.

Date: 2010-07-21 09:31 am (UTC)
angelophile: (Molly - Mod Hat)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
We stated it in yesterday's newsletter post, but to clarify for you here: we have no intention of changing community policy on supporting marginalized members, calling out, anti-oppression moderation or, since it's specifically mentioned in your post, how the team have dealt with the tone argument when moderating.

In short, none of the policies or rules of the community are changing and we are totally committed to anti-oppression and providing a safer space to discuss comics.

Re: Just a few thoughts.

From: [personal profile] sallymustard - Date: 2010-07-21 02:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Just a few thoughts.

From: [personal profile] benicio127 - Date: 2010-07-21 08:11 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Just a few thoughts.

From: [personal profile] lisaquestions - Date: 2010-07-22 07:44 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-07-21 06:34 pm (UTC)
sallymustard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sallymustard
Just want to say that I'm so happy to see the mods affirm a commitment to anti-oppression and not tolerating ignorance where so many other fandom communities seem to cave to a consensus of the voice of privilege not wanting to burden itself. I'd also like to say that all this talk about feewings is pretty pathetic IMO.

Thanks again, mods, and keep up the good work.

Date: 2010-07-22 01:35 am (UTC)
freddylloyd: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freddylloyd
I finally found the thread from last month that for the first time made me as a queer comics reader feel unwelcome on Scans_daily. But the person who made that post and the comments I found alarming has changed status within the community, so I'm torn about bringing it up. On the one hand, it's an actual example, not a hypothetical; on the other hand, the situation might have worked itself out.

So I'll ask a more general question. Can a poster demand that comments in a thread express only a particular range of views (within the community guidelines, of course)? Such a demand can range from "So let's not have any YJ hating, 'kay?" to "I only want to read POSITIVE things" to a warning that disagreements with the original remarks will be labeled "mansplaining" or the like.

To me, such demands look like preemptive silencing of others' thoughts, and a violation of the community rule that "Differences of opinion are welcome." Are there any situations in which posters can narrow discussions that way?

Date: 2010-07-22 03:53 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
I gotta add something. I noticed how some suggest to just simply not say anything offensive. To that I have to say, easier said than done.

When I say that, I mean that some people aren't aware that what they said was enough to offend this person or that person. Im pretty sure we all said at least one thing that someone else took issue with and my god I have seen some standoffish responses in here. For the more naive..cut em a break. For the malicious..yea those are the ones in need of a good smack.

I have no issue with people being called out. Wait, well.. where I'm from I'm use to calling out meaning pretty much someone challenging you to meet them in a parking lot or saying things that can end up in a meeting in a parking lot. Obviously here, it means someone pointing out something offensive correct?

Now again, no problem with calling out here, but there's a difference between that and being a dick as well as being standoffish. There's a difference between calling out and piling up on someone. Some situations get so bad that some seem to just become plain bullies even and I hate bullies. I use to be a lurker, but I joined because I wanted to interact with others here.

Like I said, I welcome a healthy debate over comics, but I don't agree with people who decide to become standoffish and for what? If you have good reason, hey, by all means, do your thing. Understandably, we have our bad days. We have our trigger happy moments. Does it always make it right? No. As I said before, hey, if someone says something offensive with malicious intent, get them. We don't need said people around. Now if they say something offensive without malicious intent, call them on it if you feel a need to, but don't decide you want to be standoffish or in some cases a dick. Because guess who looks bad? If the first thing you do is attack someone, do not be surprised if they fight back because some people have less patience than others. That's like if you up and punch someone because they said something you didn't like. Did they intend to offend you? Did you give them a chance to explain? For the sake of creating a scenario, let's say the person didn't mean any harm in what they said. If that same person gets pissed and hits back, how are you gonna have a right to be mad? I can guarantee that if you physically assault someone, they're gonna come back and be ready to rumble. Now say a brawl does indeed start. Police come. They arrest the person who reacted and yet the one who initiated it got off scott free. Would that be fair? Hell to the no. Now what if they arrested the person that did initiate the fight? A little more fair if you ask me, but that's just me. Understandably some might take issue with the second party not being punished, even though said party didn't initiate it. Now if both parties were arrested, personally I think it sucks as the reacting party responded to the hostile party, but then again, it's fair because both were being disruptive and causing a disturbence. Both were fighting and at least if the reacting party went down, the initiating party is going with them. Now just imagine, same scenario. Fight starts, but the initiating party had some sympathizers. They decide that they didn't like what the reactor side either and thus want a piece of the pie. So they jump in and pile up. I can guarantee, it won't be pretty and plenty of cuffs will be passed around and no one in their right mind will side with the ones doing the ganging up.


Everyone see where I'm going?

In other words, those fighters were us posters, and the police were mods. I know, I know, I described a situation involving a physical altercation where in this case, we're talking about a war of words...very vicious war of words. Obviously in the real world, a war of words won't get you arrested..it'll just annoy the hell out of others around you and if in a public place, all involved might be asked to leave. Also keeping within the real world scenario, if the person you hit really was a prick, cops would still get you on physical assult and a dog pile would make it worst. They're just doing their job. Still, I'm hoping I made a point here.

Everything is never as they seem. Being online, we don't hear tone of voice. We don't see facial expressions, so how does someone correctly calls it?

This place can be like a bar or high school. Bar being like guys getting together, having fun, but all it takes is one to look at the other wrong and a brawl breaks out. High school..well consider us nerds the students. In fact, include even the creators as fellow students. The world of comics is our domain, the very halls in that high school. Us nerds are the mean girls who walk those halls. The creators are the ones we judge as we do. Their works and creations are the clothing and hair styles we critique. We can be downright vicious, yet, once we begin turning on each other, it gets ugly. Get it?

As I said, it's really hard to call it. We don't see each other's face. Can't hear each other's voice. So it makes it that much harder to tell intent. I don't think it's right to react in a standoffish way or to be a prick. I don't think it's right to dogpile. Because we don't know. If all we do is just assume..well..there's a reason there's an expression that goes with it. So calling out? Sure, at least then, hopefully you're not being hostile if the person didn't mean it, but if instead of calling someone out, you decide to be standoffish and an ass, well, don't blame that person for losing patience. Now if said person does respond to your calling out by being a prick and standoffish, then obviously they just dug their own hole and by all means, I won't blame you if you tear into them. Same goes for if they did intend to be offensive or started off hostile. They dug their own hole.

Dogpiling. If said person was being a prick, honestly, I might find it more acceptable, but again, dogpiling is really when things seem to get ugly and lines blur. Lines are crossed. So form your own opinions there, but if said person is innocent of malicious intent, back off. Otherwise, more than one person would need to be spoken to by the mod. All in all, cooler heads need to prevail because ultimately, we don't really know unless we see it clearly.

I say this because, I don't like being negative and I'm sure most others feel the same. At l east, I don't want us turning against each other. Again, that's just me.

Side note: How many mods do we have? Regardless of criticisms and praise, I don't envy their position. Gotta be tough when dealing with so many people. So gotta respect that.

Date: 2010-07-22 07:35 am (UTC)
lisaquestions: Phoenix looking toward the viewer. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lisaquestions
Why do you want everyone to be telepathic?

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d - Date: 2010-07-22 07:40 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lisaquestions - Date: 2010-07-22 07:45 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d - Date: 2010-07-22 07:52 am (UTC) - Expand

...

From: [personal profile] lisaquestions - Date: 2010-07-22 07:59 am (UTC) - Expand

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From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d - Date: 2010-07-22 08:03 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-10-25 12:03 am (UTC)
yuriboke: (Default)
From: [personal profile] yuriboke
I posted a review of the series Cutey Honey earlier this evening but, even though I pasted all of the content that I wanted behind a cut within the "cut space" before posting, the cut was broken. I deleted the post (I have the review saved), but I'm wondering if there's something I can do to make sure the cut works. (Or to know if it doesn't work one posts more than a certain amount of content behind the cut?)

Date: 2010-10-25 12:25 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Babs Gordon)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Are you talking about the Rich Text editor or the HTML editor?

In HTML, to make a cut you'll want the tag <cut text="Your cut text here"> at the beginning of your cut area, and </cut> bat the end. The cut won't show up in the preview since it only displays on the comm main page (or any watcher's friends page), so you won't be able to double-check it until the post. But it should be alright if the HTML's good.

In Rich Text, once your post is written, if you highlight the cut area and click the "Cut" button, it will highlight the cut area in grey. Come to think of it, that's a pretty way you can double-check your cut if you're working in HTML, too!

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] yuriboke - Date: 2010-10-25 12:35 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-02-15 01:41 am (UTC)
galateus: "Even Dr. Octopus can learn something from the Internet!" (Ock Internet)
From: [personal profile] galateus
Hey, could we have another community-resources post? Since pict.com dumped all its free accounts not long ago, I'm a little lost on what the best option is for a NSFW image host, since the old standbys of Photobucket, ImageShack, and TinyPic tend to delete gory stuff and pr0n alike.

I mean, I'm googling "adult image host" and I'm checking out the results, but there are a lot of options and I don't know which ones are likely to a) stick around, b) be reliable.

Mod post

Date: 2011-03-23 07:56 am (UTC)
houbanaut: (Default)
From: [personal profile] houbanaut
Since the community rules reminder post is blocked for comments, I guess comments are supposed to go here?

"There are plenty of places to find scans and comics commentary. If you cannot abide by the rules and ethos of Scans Daily, we would suggest you leave."

I'm genuinely curious: What other places exist where people can read and posts scans excerpting new and old comics of all kinds (not just superheroes, not just anime), and have a lively discussion about them? I've not found any.

Date: 2011-06-01 09:25 pm (UTC)
mas: Solun Eclipse (Default)
From: [personal profile] mas
Can we make this month (June 11) anti-sad and anti-depressing month?

Request for Scans

Date: 2012-08-07 12:40 am (UTC)
blue_bolt: Fat Watcher (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
I wasn't certain where to post this, but it does seem to be a suggestion.

Can we get some Alfred Pennyworth love this week?

He's my favourite character in both DC and Marvel.

Re: Request for Scans

Date: 2012-08-07 11:48 pm (UTC)
aeka: (Jason Todd [mod hood])
From: [personal profile] aeka
Hi! Thank you for your suggestion. I'll bring it up to the rest of the mod team. :)

Post #500, and a suggestion to go with it.

Date: 2014-03-23 03:22 pm (UTC)
sir_razorback: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sir_razorback
Wow, there's alot of dust in here. Close to two years since the last time somebody's sat at the desk and left a memo for the Mod Squad. I have an idea to expand the community though. Why not make a facebook page?

Sure, anyone could do it, but without endorsement and promotion by you guys it would wither and die. Keep the bulk of the scans here, but having a more social area we can congregate at, share coffee, and talk about things without having to follow as strict a set of guidelines. Yes, no-scans daily already encompasses some of this idea, but the last time I poked my nose over there topic were still meant to be strictly comics-related.

About 7 years ago now my son was born, some of you may remember a message I wrote celebrating it. It went over... less than well. I think alot of us here have grown into an extended family and a new avenue of communication may just be welcome.

Re: Post #500, and a suggestion to go with it.

Date: 2014-03-26 12:27 am (UTC)
aeka: (Power Girl [modcon]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
Hello and thank you for the feedback.

We have actually been talking amongst ourselves about possible ways to improve the community and I have even made a few suggestions to the rest of the mod team, including about what we can do with NoScans.

Right now we're still working out what we feel needs to get done.
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Scans Daily
Founded by girl geeks and members of the slash fandom, [community profile] scans_daily strives to provide an atmosphere which is LGBTQ-friendly, anti-racist, anti-ableist, woman-friendly and otherwise discrimination and harassment free.

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