Suggestions

[sd_admin]

First an announcement: While modbot seemed like a good idea at the time, it's proved to be unpopular with members. From now on we'll be using it only for admin posts, so that they can be edited by all members of the mod team.


We know that some members have had issues with the community and the mod team, and felt like they couldn't bring them to our attention. Here is your chance. If you've got a question, concern or suggestion about Scans Daily, here's where you can post it.

This post will be linked to in our profile, and checked regularly by the mods. Comments won't be screened, so you can suggest amongst yourselves.

Comments

[valtyr]

but I'm still human and it's more than likely that I will, at some point, screw up. And not only will it make me feel like crap to know that I injured someone else unintentionally--because I've certainly been in the position of the injured myself and I know how much it can hurt--being jumped on with abusive language or dismissiveness will make me feel worse.

But it's not about you, and it's not about your feelings. If you've said something oppressive, offensive, dehumanizing, upsetting, I really don't see why your feelings should be the first, second, or third priority.

As you say, everyone screws up. I'm sure I will, too, in time. And when I do, I'm sure I'll feel very sorry for myself. But when I do, I hope I've learned enough not to throw a pity party because I fucked up. I hope I'll realise that the important parties are the people I've hurt with my fuck-up, and if them calling me an insensitive ignorant asshole makes them feel any better? That's not a huge price for me to pay.

Especially as, you know, it's the truth. Saying something racist/sexist/transphobic/homophobic is an ignorant, insensitive, asshole move, and in all honestly I think as a society we let that assholishness pass without comment far, far too often - to the extent that when someone does call that asshole behaviour out for exactly what it is, we're shocked.

[dr_von_fangirl]

...and if them calling me an insensitive ignorant asshole makes them feel any better? That's not a huge price for me to pay.

It's not a huge price to get called an insensitive, ignorant asshole, but it goes against s_d's own rules against issuing insults. Saying a statement is an insensitive, ignorant asshole thing to say isn't the same as saying the person behind the statement is an insensitive, ignorant asshole, but both seem to be acceptable responses in the cases of "That offended me!"--and therein lies the problem with the current system.

"Do not issue insults" doesn't mean "Do not issue insults unless you're offended." At least, I hope it doesn't, because it enforces the idea that our rules aren't rules but are instead loose-guidelines-with-invisible-subtext. It's a slippery slope because if you invalidate one rule by not enforcing it, then you invalidate them all.

And frankly, nobody can ever hope to play by the rules if the rules are only enforced sometimes or if they appear fluid/subjective--and to expect them to try is a little ridiculous.

[valtyr]

First of all, you're mis-stating the calling out policy. Speech which offends is not a one-to-one match with oppressive speech. I can't call someone out for saying they think Ult Cap is a fascist tool (although that offends me, yes it does). Because it's not oppressive.

Saying a statement is an insensitive, ignorant asshole thing to say isn't the same as saying the person behind the statement is an insensitive, ignorant asshole

You're placing the burden on the victim of oppressive speech, and that's not right. On the Internet, all we have to judge you by is what you post; and yet you expect that if you say something racist, people should assume (because they don't know you) that you're not a racist? You expect virtual strangers you've just said something wounding to to take the time to carefully distinguish between you and your words? When you couldn't even be bothered to not say something offensive in the first place?

If a guy says 'nice tits' to me, I'm not going to assume his words don't represent his beliefs and lecture him on how the patriarchy encourages men to believe they have rights over women's bodies, leading them to believe it's appropriate to critique the body of a stranger, and I appreciate that having been raised in a sexist society he's had little opportunity to learn better. I'm going to tell the asshole to fuck off.

The fact that S_D places the burden on the person who says oppressive and hurtful things, and not on the person who is hurt by those things, is not a problem. It's one of its finest qualities.

or if they appear fluid/subjective

Right, so why aren't you demanding clear rules for what constitutes NSFW? Everyone seems quite content to leave that to discretion despite the fact it's subjective. But when it's anti-oppression work, suddenly every nit must be picked?

[dr_von_fangirl]

You're absolutely correct that it's wrong to put all the burden on the offended party--and that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the mods need to more clearly define what's allowed and what isn't, which I don't think is unreasonable given that it's part of their job description to answer such questions--as they arise--to the best of their ability.

The extent of the calling out policy on the Rules & Ethos page is "Calling out is not a personal attack. Calling out is encouraged."

That's pretty much it. The following line in the rules, after the asterisk that clarifies that calling out is not a personal attack, is "do not issue insults."

So if someone says something offensive and an injured party responds with "You sexist asshole!", the offender has no idea that this is allowed as part of calling out and doesn't count as an insult. I can certainly see how they might make that mistake, given that 'asshole' is usually pretty insulting and the rules say that insults aren't allowed. They respond poorly, the thread devolves into a shouting match and everyone walks away the worse for wear on all sides.

Perhaps we can avoid this--or at least greatly reduce the frequency of such incidents--if the rules about what is allowed in calling out are more clearly defined. We can't ever hope to define them perfectly to include every 'what if' that could possibly come along, but we can certainly nip a lot of things in the bud if we lay out some less vague guidelines. And, bonus, if the offender cries "Foul!", the rules concerning what's acceptable in calling out can be cited. This further protects the injured party from the threat of even more injury.

It also makes it easier for people who are scared of a violent insult backlash in the cases of making unintentionally offensive comments understand what kind of things they shouldn't consider insulting in the eyes of the mods and the community--without compromising the ability of the offended to call them out.

Then again, perhaps it won't help at all and people who are called out for oppressive statements will always respond like privileged assholes, but I don't see how a simple further clarification in the rules of what's acceptable/expected when calling out (anything ranging from politeness to anger, sarcasm, defensiveness, words like 'privilege' or those with 'ist' and 'phobic' attached, etc.) and what isn't (insulting the offender based on their physical/emotional/sexual/etc. characteristics) could do any harm.

As for addressing NSFW...well, when people start fighting each other over what is and what isn't NSFW to the point of spewing hurtful words back and forth, then I'll probably ask for more clearly defined guidelines.

[valtyr]

I agree a quick explanation of what constitutes calling-out would probably be an advantageous thing to have in the rules. I don't agree it should set 'acceptable' calling-out language. You may only be this angry when someone uses a racial slur? Here is the list of acceptable swear-words for when you're dehumanized and dismissed? You're not allowed to use oppressive language when calling out oppression, and that's about it. Everything else is - yes - subjective. It's for the mods to decide if someone's stepped over the line in calling out.

What do you want? A table? "Hm, they said all black people are athletic. That's a generalization based on race - I can call them an asshole! - oh wait, it's a positive stereotype, that's a -1 modifier to my rage. I'm downgraded to calling them a poopyhead. Shit. Wait! It could also be construed as ableist, dismissing all black people who are physically disabled! I'll just roll a d20 on the intersectionality chart - YES! Natural 20! I can call them a fuckheaded fucker! Woo!"

nobody can ever hope to play by the rules if the rules are only enforced sometimes or if they appear fluid/subjective

But you do acknowledge that people can and do play by the NSFW rules despite them being fluid/subjective? They rely on parties making a good-faith effort to comply, and that generally works?

[angelophile]

The thing is that there has to be some fluidity when the question of tone comes up.

Do you believe that, for example, a marginalized member being triggered by a racist, ableist, misogynistic, transphobic or otherwise oppressive comment or scene saying "What an asshole" as an immediate response is on the same level as a privileged member saying "What an asshole" as a response to a colorist coloring Wolverine's hair wrong, for example?

[dr_von_fangirl]

I personally don't think the two offenses are on the same level, no--but we're not talking about personal viewpoint of a given situation, we're talking about trying to interact in a community according to its rules as they are written. For clarification...

Do you consider 'asshole' to be an insult? If so, isn't it automatically not allowed at all thanks to the second rule of the rules of conduct? If it IS allowed in cases of an oppressive/offensive statement being made and an oppressed/offended member responding, could you please--and I mean this in all seriousness--point out to me where in the rules such an allowance is made?

If it IS allowed in the cases of calling out, then perhaps an addendum to the rules which states what is acceptable in a calling out/what I should not consider personally insulting in such instances would be helpful. This might keep some offenders in such situations from automatically blowing their tops when they think they've been attacked in the course of a calling out. It won't keep them all from doing it, but I'd imagine such a clarification would squash a lot of fights before they got started.

[moneyless_jew]

but we're not talking about personal viewpoint of a given situation, we're talking about trying to interact in a community according to its rules as they are written.

Exactly, and this is where the new rules fall apart. They don't account for moderating a large comm.