Suggestions

[sd_admin]

First an announcement: While modbot seemed like a good idea at the time, it's proved to be unpopular with members. From now on we'll be using it only for admin posts, so that they can be edited by all members of the mod team.


We know that some members have had issues with the community and the mod team, and felt like they couldn't bring them to our attention. Here is your chance. If you've got a question, concern or suggestion about Scans Daily, here's where you can post it.

This post will be linked to in our profile, and checked regularly by the mods. Comments won't be screened, so you can suggest amongst yourselves.

Comments

[skalja]

You're expressing a lot of fear and concern over a hypothetical situation that's practically unheard of except in the hypothetical, and very little fear and concern over the situations that occur regularly.

[cmdr_zoom]

Absolute, zero-tolerance rules tend to produce that response for me. I tend to absolutism myself, binary thinking and high standards, and so I leap easily to the very worst case scenario and thinking the worst of people. Myself included.

Also, as I said, I've seen too many other cases where people will abuse the spirit of the rules while keeping their toes on the line. "I'm not touching you," only between supposed adults.

Finally, I admit that I tend to focus more on things that might personally affect me. If I allowed myself to dwell regularly upon the full panoply of injustices and cruelties past and present, I would become depressed, misanthropic, and possibly suicidal. Moreso than I am already, that is.

[recognitions]

"I tend to absolutism myself, binary thinking and high standards, and so I leap easily to the very worst case scenario and thinking the worst of people."

Not sure why the rest of us are supposed to reorient our lives to accomodate this.

[cmdr_zoom]

I'm not certain that I expressed a desire or an imperative that you should, but in the interest of discussion, I'll concede the point and respond: should I, then, reorient my life to accommodate yours? On what basis should that be determined? Or is this another (false) binary, and should other options be considered?

Please forgive me for waxing philosophical; it's been that kind of day. As another example, what if we could actually accept other beings as equals, rather than holding ourselves just that little bit superior? Would we still be "human"?

[skalja]

Yes, that's a false binary, and one which has no relation to what's going on in this conversation, to boot. We can be mutually considerate of each other's needs, and when our needs come into conflict we can discuss it as a group or part ways. However, for needs to conflict, both needs need to be legitimate and somewhat on parity. Your concern over someone hurting you by wildly overreacting to an offensive comment you might possibly make in the future is not remotely in parity with other members' concerns about people already having hurt them by being offensive. Therefore, their concern comes before yours.

You're waxing philosophical over abstractions to avoid dealing with reality, and in doing so you are hurting other members of this community. Please stop.

[cmdr_zoom]

Done.

[recognitions]

skalja said it. Nobody's asking you to reorient your life for any one person. You're in a community. You have an obligation to either abide by the community rules as they've been set up, or break them and deal with the consequences. And the first step towards accepting other people as equals involves realizing that some people are treated more equal than others in this world, and that doesn't magically disappear once you go on the internet.

[mad]

I think it would be useful for you to learn the difference between equality and equity.

[cmdr_zoom]

That's true. And in this comm, it's you who are fortunate to fall into the "more equal than others" category.

I had been feeling better about this whole thing, after the resolution further down thread, but you've managed to pretty much completely destroy that with your constant baiting and belittling of me. I am tired, I am fed up, and - since the responsibility falls on me to step back - as of this moment I am taking a week's sabbatical from all of s_d.

Enjoy the week of celebration and your personal victory over teh evulz of opreshun. And all you had to do was grind down another human being's enthusiasm for this community.

[skalja]

You're spending a lot of time and energy defending the hypothetically harmed in proportion to the time and energy you spend defending the actually harmed. If you really think the worst of people and have such high standards, I would think you would emphasize the harm that has been done to members of our community by other people, not minimize it like you're doing.

As a former mod for this comm for three and a half years, believe me, I've seen a LOT of people abusing the spirit of the rules, and yet I can't recall a single instance of people trolling by pretending to be offended at discrimination -- either on scans_daily or the entire internet. People trolling by deliberately trying to offend people, I probably see on a weekly basis.

Finally, I admit that I tend to focus more on things that might personally affect me. If I allowed myself to dwell regularly upon the full panoply of injustices and cruelties past and present, I would become depressed, misanthropic, and possibly suicidal. Moreso than I am already, that is.

It is perfectly fair and natural to want to take care of yourself first and foremost, both physically and emotionally. What is not fair is to complain about a hypothetical harm that might in an extremely unlikely scenario happen to you at the expense of attention to actual, present harm that has already happened to other people. That's not taking care of yourself, that's being selfish.

[cmdr_zoom]

You're speaking to someone who's considered, in detail, what he might do in the case of various apocalypses (nuclear, biological (pandemic and zombie), general collapse of civilization, etc) or meeting Baba Yaga. I live very much in the realm of the hypothetical and fantastical. I suppose I find those scenarios easier to deal with than the serious and complex issues of real life. (Thus, comics.)

Unfortunately, all of these escape attempts share a common flaw - they all necessarily include people, if only myself.

[skalja]

And in general it's fine that you do that, but it's no longer fine when you gloss over people's real, current needs in favor of a hypothetical need that you will probably never have.

One could argue that I spend more time in the fantasy worlds in my head than interacting with actual people, but that doesn't mean it's okay for me to prioritize my fantasy world problems over problems that are actually happening, in real life, to other people.

[cmdr_zoom]

First, I don't think I have the ability to fulfill those needs or to effect meaningful change in the real world; second, my few attempts have been so clumsy and ill-advised that, as a rule, I now try to remain as completely uninvolved as my privilege allows and let people who understand their own issues work it all out for themselves without my "help." It seems likely in hindsight that I should have followed that principle here instead of letting myself get drawn in over a possible worst case. I approached it as a matter of a poorly-defined and potentially abusable rule, without context.

I apologize for my error, and I thank you for your time.

[sandoz_iscariot]

And in general it's fine that you do that, but it's no longer fine when you gloss over people's real, current needs in favor of a hypothetical need that you will probably never have.

Exactly. If such a situation should ever arise, the mod team will address it to the best of their abilities. However, the immediate, pressing concern is to help the members who are facing oppressive comments in the community--something that is happening right now, and hurting real people--rather than ponder a hypothetical group that may never exist.

[foxhack]

My own life experiences have taught me to always expect the worst.

Especially from semi-anonymous people on the internet.

I'm in Zoom's camp. I can never be 100% comfortable here.

[skalja]

And I say to you what I said to Zoom: It is perfectly fair and natural to want to take care of yourself first and foremost, both physically and emotionally. What is not fair is to complain about a hypothetical harm that might in an extremely unlikely scenario happen to you at the expense of attention to actual, present harm that has already happened to other people. That's not taking care of yourself, that's being selfish.

[foxhack]

Selfish... perhaps.

But I spent many of my child years being bullied by people who abused the rules to their own benefit... and now I'm living in a country where that sort of behavior is the norm within people of power all across the board.

It just makes me feel tense and wary of saying something I shouldn't. And that's not something I enjoy.

[recognitions]

Right, because no one else in this community was ever bullied as a kid.

I know you're not saying that the mods should change the rules of the community just to accommodate your own unhappy childhood. So...what exactly are you saying?

[moneyless_jew]

Why not? They change to accommodate everyone else.

[foxhack]

I wanted to give you an answer to the best of my abilities, but...

Right, because no one else in this community was ever bullied as a kid.

I do not believe that replying with sarcasm right off the bat, when I'm trying to be serious about something, is the proper way to go about asking these things.

There is a time and a place. And it isn't now.

[lisaquestions]

Huh, I know I can never be 100% comfortable here because if I respond to any oppressive bullshit, I can expect to not only have the person I responded to continue repeating that oppressive bullshit to try to prove he's not really offensive, I can expect a large number of people in the comm to judge me as the one at fault because I dared to talk back.

Oh, yeah, and I was bullied too. I think it's misleading to characterize responses to oppressive comments as "bullying." The bullying was already there. The responses are more akin to "fighting back."

[foxhack]

I'm not talking about the earlier incident at all. Whatever happened with that rex guy is not related to what I was trying to argue here. I never mentioned him, even once. As far as I am aware, that stuff is dealt and done with, because he settled things with the community members he offended.

If voicing my concerns over the implementation and reach of the calling out rules in the Suggestions posts will only make other community members react in a negative way, then perhaps I don't have a place here anymore.

And you have no idea how sad that makes me.

[lisaquestions]

I'm referring to multiple earlier incidents, not just P_R. It just so happens that the P_R incident made it clear that a significant number of members here feel that it's okay to coddle people who make deeply insulting generalizations, but that it's absolutely necessary to smack down anyone who reacts to those generalizations. Practically the entire comm showed its ass during that particular incident, and it defines how I've viewed S_D since then.

And in this post, multiple members are making exactly the same complaints that were aired then.

So yeah, if you don't feel 100% welcome here? Welcome to the club, I guess?

[foxhack]

I don't know what to say anymore. I don't know how to act here anymore.

All I know is that when I think of Scans Daily... the first word that pops up isn't "fun" anymore.

Please take care of this place. That's all I ask.