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[sd_admin]

First an announcement: While modbot seemed like a good idea at the time, it's proved to be unpopular with members. From now on we'll be using it only for admin posts, so that they can be edited by all members of the mod team.


We know that some members have had issues with the community and the mod team, and felt like they couldn't bring them to our attention. Here is your chance. If you've got a question, concern or suggestion about Scans Daily, here's where you can post it.

This post will be linked to in our profile, and checked regularly by the mods. Comments won't be screened, so you can suggest amongst yourselves.

Comments

[supergirl]

I think we're misunderstanding each other. My opinion is this: someone who inadvertently displays ignorance or spells out their reasoning ("I don't understand why the other members think this 'Lois as a black woman' comic is racist?" or "I don't agree this art is sexist because ____") deserves a mature response from the community and moderators. A person who takes a hostile tone or position ("lol like a twink boy like that could bend steel" or "Christ's sake, you guys, I'm right and you're wrong") should be warned/banned/left to the whims of a lolcat macro-wielding community.

I believe there is a clear divide between these two types of comments. I'm not sure how to illustrate that divide, since it's just something I inherently see? I'll gladly try for further clarification if need be, but I don't think it's unreasonable to differentiate between legitimate differences of opinion and someone being -- as we've termed -- just an asshole.

[valtyr]

"I don't understand why the other members think this 'Lois as a black woman' comic is racist?"

Well, see, that's not really an offensive statement. If you look back at a lot of controversial posts, then people who say "I don't understand" tend to get polite and informative answers. There can be useful and interesting discussions had.

someone who inadvertently displays ignorance

First of all, if I answer the phone and someone screams abuse at me and I'm hurt and shaken, it doesn't matter if it turns out it's a wrong number. I'm still going to feel bad. "I didn't mean it," doesn't help.

Second, how do we tell? "Excuse me, did you mean that to be sexist?" How many people are going to say 'Yes'? Even if they did mean it to be sexist? They're mostly going to lie.

I believe there is a clear divide between these two types of comments.

I'm sure some people are maliciously and some are accidentally racist, but that doesn't make the person on the receiving end of the nasty unpleasant shit feel any better.

[supergirl]

I'm not sure how to explain my idea of "being the better man" in comment responses, in response to avoiding flame wars, so since I've aired my feelings, I'll leave it up to the mods to discuss possible solutions at this point.

[valtyr]

Yes, but 'being the better man' is another burden placed on the oppressed. It's not enough their necks are under the heel of the oppressor, they have to ask nicely for the heel to be removed?

I mean, if you want to take the high road and respond to oppression with civility, then you absolutely can! Go for it. But it's not fair to ask people who are victims of racism and sexism and transphobia to always be nice about it. Especially it is not fair to ask people who are suffering under oppression you do not share to be nicer about it. And a thousand times no to asking people you are oppressing to be nicer to you about your oppression of them.

I think 'the better man' would not hurt people and then tell them they should be nicer about it.

[supergirl]

I think I managed to completely miss clarifying that it is the mods who should be taking the higher road and looking at the issue from both sides to best judge a situation. My bad, that's what I get for multi-tasking with Lego Batman Very Mature and Important Things.

I don't think it would be reasonable to expect a community response against comments beyond "ignore them and report the buggers to the mods."

[valtyr]

looking at the issue from both sides to best judge a situation

I'm not a mod of this comm, but I do mod a comm with an anti-oppression policy.

Picture the valtyr, on the high road, pondering the situation.

So A said something racist.

And then B yelled at them for being racist.

Hmmm. Saying racist things is bad, wrong, and against comm rules, I mark A down.

Calling out racist things is good work, Batman.

Okay, looks like A loses this one.

[supergirl]

And since you're not a moderator of this comm, I will need to step down from discussion since the above comment really, really implies to me that you're not understanding the whole "shades of gray" concept in terms of disrespect. To me -- and if someone can point out a flaw in this logic, you're more than invited -- there is a sizable difference between "I thought all black people were athletic!" and "fuckin' n*ggers."

tl;dr this thread: "Response is up to the mods' discretion, but I'd appreciate the response matching the offense."

[valtyr]

there is a sizable difference between "I thought all black people were athletic!" and "fuckin' n*ggers."


...

Okay, if you consider "I thought all black people were athletic!" to be a perfectly reasonable thing any well meaning person could say without considering it could be taken as racist, then I think you're right that this is not a useful discussion.

[supergirl]

I'm from Maine. Love my state, but that's how a lot of the folks up here roll. A family friend was adopted from Africa, and his mother sincerely thought his ethnicity was what gave him his athletic prowess.

That'd be the "inadvertently ignorant" bit I was referring to and -- lsdfj NO I'M NOT REPLYING ANYMORE.

[valtyr]

Shit, man, I didn't realise Maine didn't have books or internet access or TV.

I guess with none of those resources, they really have no way of knowing that all the billion or so black people in the world don't share one quality.

I mean, assuming Maine also has no access to logic.

You know what, there's different kinds of inadvertent, too. There's "I try very hard to watch where I put my feet but this time I slipped up and stepped on your foot and I'm sorry," and there's "I have my eyes shut and I'm dancing wildly in a crowded room! I'm not trying to step on anyone's foot, but I'm sure as hell putting no effort into avoiding them."

Anyone who thinks it's okay or reasonable to say "I thought all black people were athletic" falls into the second category.

[wonderseal]

I find that disregarding the contextual culture of a place and how it informs the collective mindset is counterproductive. I'm not from Maine and I find your comments hurtful and mocking. Maine isn't Toronto or LA or Chicago and no amount of media exposure will change the fact that there is a collective psyche that is oftentimes unjust and unfair. I've lived in the Midwest, the South, and the Pacific Northwest. The media coverage in any given region reinforces the collective prejudices that people have.

It must be nice to stand from a vantage point where you can ignore all of these things, but saying that Maine is willfully ignorant while also saying they're not allowed to be is incredibly counter-intuitive to any argument you might be making.

I also think that this conversation has forsaken the point of this post, but in responding, I know I'm perpetuating it and it is not my call to make.

[valtyr]

Dude, I didn't meet a black person until I was fifteen, and we really didn't have the internet back then. I saw Craig Charles on Red Dwarf and didn't realise he was black. He had dreadlocks and I didn't realise he was black. Believe me, I know about being raised ignorant.

Look, people should know that making broad assumptions about any group of people is very silly. Did this lady think Oprah Winfrey was an athlete?

but saying that Maine is willfully ignorant while also saying they're not allowed to be is incredibly counter-intuitive to any argument you might be making.

Well, sure they're allowed to be. And I'm allowed to criticize that. And given that the thrust of my argument is that it's okay to criticize the wilfully ignorant, I find it lines up nicely.

The media coverage in any given region reinforces the collective prejudices that people have.

Yes, well, 'television made me racist' isn't an excuse. You are ultimately responsible for your own behaviour.

that there is a collective psyche that is oftentimes unjust and unfair.

As you say, it's unjust and unfair; and thus it should be called out and criticized.

Also, I find it fascinating that you two are saying "Maine's totally racist, it's the culture!" but you think I'm the one being mean about it.

[wonderseal]

This conversation is very off-point and is an example of why I feel I'm not welcome here. Again, you have valid points but I don't feel like they're relevant to what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone's being mean, but I was offended and to tell me I wasn't or shouldn't be offended is again counterproductive to your argument.

Have a good day.

[valtyr]

but I was offended and to tell me I wasn't or shouldn't be offended is again counterproductive to your argument.

A shiny dollar for the person who can find where I told wonderseal that they weren't or shouldn't be offended!

[supergirl]

I cannot believe we ended up so perfectly illustrating the exact thread a moderator intervention with an open view is necessary to diffuse.

Do we have an "ironic meta" tag yet?

[valtyr]

I know, right? Where is the mod who will explain to wonderseal that it's wrong for them to say I said they shouldn't be offended when I did not, in fact, say that?

[wonderseal]

This conversation has made me increasingly uncomfortable and I would like the mods to take note that this is the sort of devolution of discussion that is making me uncomfortable.

You're baiting me, pure and simple and it's frustrating. Did I call you mean? Did I say that you are a meanie poo poo pants because you disagree with me? No. The most I said was that I was offended. And mocking me? Calling out the legitimacy of my claim? That is mean. And that is ugly and that is why this is an unwelcome comm to me.

This is a post about what we can do to make the comm better. This discourse is counterproductive to that and I'm responding to explain that this is the exact reason I'm not involved. Not you, personally, though you are playing the role in this case, but it is something that happens quite a bit. I don't feel welcome, and not just because someone disagrees with me (which I enjoy!), but because they do so in a way that is openly mocking or hurtful.

[angelophile]

Okay, at this point I will step in and ask all parties to disengage. It's apparent the conversation has reached an impasse and that further continuation of it's unlikely to be productive.

[valtyr]

Apologies - I was already responding when you posted this.

[valtyr]

So basically, you lie about what I said, I call out the lie, and I am at fault? And somehow the moderators should rein in my drawing attention to your dishonesty, because it gives you a sad when people point out your lie.

I mean, considering I have in this very post made a comment about how much I hate it when people lie about clearly visible comments, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you were baiting me by doing that.

[kingrockwell]

The thing to keep in mind here is that "inadvertent ignorance" is the most common method of perpetuating oppression. It isn't the intention, but oppression is oppression, and those who suffer from it can't be expected to "mind their tone" just because someone displays busted ideas out of ignorance.

Oppression isn't something perpetuated simply from one individual to another, but something systemic, rooted in our society to favor certain groups over others. That ignorance is rooted in the privilege of not having experienced oppression as a member of that group, and whatever way you paint it, "I thought all black people were athletic!" and other similar notions are deeply racist.

Moreover, the idea that a minority should be polite in the face of oppression is what's called the tone argument fallacy, essentially the idea from a privileged person to a disprivileged person that "they'd react so much better if you'd only be nicer/you shouldn't be so angry!" The fact of the matter is a) if someone is going to react poorly to being called out, it is usually untrue that calling zir "politely" will have the effect of changing that, b) living in a society that systematically oppresses and throws these situations at you all the time is draining, it will rob one of patience for dealing with such matters. We are not, nor shall we ever be, interested in policing the tone of the disprivileged in the face of oppression.

You mentioned earlier that you come here to forget that the world can be an intolerant place. Well, so do a number of other people who are disprivileged in various ways, and when things within the comm or the fandom remind them of that intolerance, what do you expect them to do?