Judas #1

[history79]

"He betrayed the Son of God...that's not really something you can just wash away. He wakes up in Hell, feeling like he absolutely deserves to be there. But then Judas learns that he was preordained to betray Jesus. Jesus knew this the whole time and let it happen anyway. Judas then feels like Jesus betrayed him. Jesus basically sent His friend to Hell to glorify Himself, and that shatters Judas.

It's going to be very fun to flip the Biblical perspective and look at Jesus in an adversarial light. As Judas journeys through Hell, he'll make shaky alliances and learn more about the grand story he's a cog in. It's a really fun way to explore the ongoing debate of free will vs. determinism and how much of a say we really have in our lives."

- Jeff Loveness




10 pages of 30

Comments

[nyadnar17]

That's the whole debate isn't it? Are "unintended consequences" even possible when you are dealing with an Omniscient, Omnipotent entity?

Was Judas "setup by God" because he wouldn't have betrayed Jesus if God hadn't sent Jesus to earth in the first place?
Is the responsibility fully on Judas because Judas freely chose to do an evil act when given the opportunity to do so?
Assuming no compulsion, like say OCD or a drug addiction, is being given the opportunity to do an evil act a violation my free will?

Does the fact that someone knows exactly what I am going to do ahead of time mean I have no free will? Thats the argument Tom Kin's Riddler makes. I think Sherlock Holmes' Moriarty makes it as well. They view most people as barely real because they can totally simulate them inside their heads. Is someone, or God, knowing exactly what I am going to do in a given circumstance proof that I have no free will?

To me its an interesting topic.

[kamino_neko]

In a conception of omnicience which includes perfect prescience (rather than simply complete knowledge of all that has already happened and all that is in the process of happening), then the concept of free will is nonsensical, because free will requires choice, and choice precludes perfect prescience, because choice necessitates uncertainty of the outcome. I no more chose to type these words than the computer chose to display them.

[icon_uk]

Omniscience does not preclude free will. Free will is still present, it's just that the omniscient person is aware of all the free choices that were made.

[alicemacher]

That's similar to the argument of Maimonides. He said that because God isn't timebound, what we experience as past, present and future is to God simply the present. So God knows everyone's choices because from the divine perspective, God is simply observing people making those choices as they make them--whether they make them in what humans experience as past, present, or future. That, Maimonides concludes, is how God knows our "future" choices "before" we make them, without God causing us to choose them.

[icon_uk]

I've always presumed that omniscience automatically encompasses all of time, otherwise I don't feel it's really "omni-" :)

One of my favourite summaries of free will (and, by inference, Heaven and Hell) is in Pratchett's short story Death and What Comes Next

[kamino_neko]

That's just a restatement of the point at the core of the argument, though.

'Choice' becomes meaningless if the 'choice' that will be made can be seen with 100% accuracy before the person who made the choice is even born. The universe is just one big Hobson's Choice - there's an illusion of free choice, but you can't do anything but what you've already been seen to do.

[akodo_aoshi]

Actually that becomes more of a disagreement regarding what a "Choice" actually is.

To me it does not matter if God or some super-computer or alien entity etc can predict my actions 100%.

As long as I am not being compelled to do those actions, then it is my "Choice" to do those actions wheter they are predicted or not.

[icon_uk]

But choice is only meaningless if the person making the choice is aware of the outcomes of their choice.

If you're looking at the entirety of spacetime as a known entity, then the fact the individuals make free choices is significant, but since that's not a human possibility, we can only make our own choices on our own terms.

Whether the Universe is Hobson's Choice or not, we'll never know, because we CAN'T ever know, so we can only make the best choices you can, because those are what will impact on you and your environment, and that's all we can ever comprehend.

[kamino_neko]

IMO, that's just dodging the question, though.

Under the framework being discussed, the fact that humans can't see the future only allows us to maintain the illusion of free will, but if anyone, even God, can know the choices I make before I make them - before my parents' parents' parents were even born, even - then I can't think of a meaningful way in which I've made a choice at all - I could never have chosen differently than I did, my choice was set, not by my making the choice, but by God seeing the choice made.

(Incidentally, I meant Morton's Fork, not Hobson's Choice...I always get the two of them mixed up. I'm arguing even Hobson's Choice doesn't exist under a framework which includes prescience.)

At this point I'm going to (depending on the nature of the universe and philosophical bent) either exercise my free will or play my role in the pre-written narrative, and bow out of this discussion, because we seem to mostly be repeating the same points.

[icon_uk]

Are you suggesting we can't resolve a philosophical and theological conundrum which has consistently baffled some the finest minds the human race has ever produced for several thousand years?

THAT'S not the ol' scans_daily spirit!

;)

[sisterofbloomerjunior]

Well, we can, but we need more shots of Dick's buns and subtext to do so.

[icon_uk]

Well, he is/was a Caped Crusader I suppose! :D

[akodo_aoshi]

Under the framework being discussed, the fact that humans can't see the future only allows us to maintain the illusion of free will, but if anyone, even God, can know the choices I make before I make them - before my parents' parents' parents were even born, even - then I can't think of a meaningful way in which I've made a choice at all - I could never have chosen differently than I did, my choice was set, not by my making the choice, but by God seeing the choice made.

How does this honestly compute? How does someone else knowing what you will choose, affect your ability to choose?

I seriously do not not get this point.

Your ability to freely choose as you see fit is not hampered or even restricted by anyone else having perfect knowledge of what you will choose.

[kamino_neko]

Your ability to freely choose as you see fit is not hampered or even restricted by anyone else having perfect knowledge of what you will choose.

Free choice and perfect prescience are mutually incoherent concepts.

There is no reasonable definition of 'free will' that allows for 100% accurate foreknowledge. The ability to choose, by definition, allows for upsetting the apple cart.

An act that can be perfectly foreseen is not a choice. Prescience can only ever been probabilities, not certainty.

But, this is really and truly my last comment on this topic. I have the choice to stop repeating myself, and I am going to exercise my free will and throw the bird at the entities who viewed the potential timelines where I kept it up.

[icon_uk]

Yeah, I sort of see it like owning a DVD box set, I can watch it and see what happens, but my watching doesn't impact on what happens in the DVD set.

Which is probably a terribly shallow metaphor, but I'm a shallow kinda guy.