Doomsday Clock #6

[superboyprime]

Final Thoughts?

Alan Moore: Yes: cherish the astonishing and unlikely world that we all exist in; try to live with love and without fear; and anybody who has anything to do with any of these shitty Watchmen travesties, even as a member of the audience, will be dragged screaming to hell by their nipples. Peace out.

Comments

[beyondthefringe]

Things I like:
The discussion of international heroes/super teams, and the acknowledgment that the world is full of metahumans.

Things I don't like:
The level of profanity. I don't object to swearing, but it feels rather weird for some reason to have it here.
Comedian apparently crippling the Riddler.
The conspiracy theories about government/military agents posing as supervillains... (okay, it's interesting, I'll grant you that...)
The part where I'm still not sure what the point of this series -is-.

[beyondthefringe]

Oh, and an addendum. I'm amused at the identification theme on the DMA agents, as it corresponds to their original debuts. Typhoon, FL294-1981 = Flash #294, 1981. Moonbow, FI143-1986 = Firestorm #143, 1986. Puppet Master, GL1-1960 = Green Lantern #1, 1960.

Which makes one wonder... how do they know? How do they know when these pre-Crisis appearances were? The true conspiracy is... who's in charge of agent identification? DUN DUN DUN......

[alicemacher]

While I would never wish that anyone involved with this project be dragged to Hell by their nipples, I have to agree with Moore on the "shitty" designation. Johns does not write the Joker well at all, and mixing in characters from a universe that was never meant to interact with the main DCU doesn't help matters.

[crinos]

This has all the realism of Punisher kills the marvel Universe.

As in Comedian shouldn't have gotten a second shot off because both Hector Hammond and Dr. Psycho are there, and could easily lobotomize Comedian with a thought.

[gnarll]

Comedian did far too well for someone from a much lower-powered continuity whos only ever met one superhuman before.

[captainbellman]

I do not like this, Sam-I-Am.

[matrix_dragon]

Good lord this is depressing. And Boring.

[cyberghostface]

Yep... remember when this was going to be about Superman and Dr. Manhattan?

[tripodeca113]

I legitimately forgot this was still going on. Another six issues of this.

[trooper924]

Last issue's supposed to come out in July 2019. This thing will have run for almost two freakin' years and there's absolutely no reason for it.

[lordultimus]

Is it bad that I still like this Joker more than how he's been written since the New 52 first began?

[thatnickguy]

I mean...at least his face isn't stapled on anymore?

[shakalooloo]

He's actually joking!

[leoboiko]

Oh come on Moore, don't be so dramat—[reads scans] ok, I understand the feeling.

[tcampbell1000]

It takes a lot to make me sympathize with the employees of giant corporations over individual creators, but Alan's "Anyone who reads or writes anything tainted by THE BETRAYERS is bankrupting the morals of English-speaking culture" shtick has been getting on my nerves since 2011 or so.

Like, I don't disagree with anyone else's complaints here. I think Geoff and Gary are wildly misguided to be doing this series. Its brief promise of addressing Trump's America has disappeared in a cloud of publishing delays and fanboy navel-gazing. I seriously forget for weeks at a time that it's still being published. And that Alan quote STILL makes me want to keep checking it out, just out of spite.

[thezmage]

Moore tried to take credit for Geoff Johns’ Darkest Night story without even reading it first, I am absolutely on board for Johns ignoring Moore’s wishes from that point on

[cyberghostface]

Yeah Johns copied a Moore story and showed him by... copying another Moore story.

"Keep it up and I'll do V vs Batman next! Then Aquaman vs the Fish Rapist from Neomonicon! Mwuahahah!"

[thezmage]

More like Johns told an original story that took a few aspects and some inspiration from a story that Moore told once, and decided that if Moore was going to try and take credit for a story so tangential related to one he’d written, there was no need to avoid the more direct route. If Moore doesn’t respect other writers, there’s no purpose in respecting him

[cyberghostface]

So in other words he just proved Moore right.

[thezmage]

How does any of this prove Moore right about claiming Blackest Night was his story? Moore tried to take credit for a story he didn’t write which had only tangential connections to one that he did, that doesn’t become okay just because Johns decides to stop caring what Moore thinks.

It’s no more Moore’s story than LoEG is Bram Stoker’s or Lost Girls is the work of Baum, Barrie, and Carroll, or Providence is Lovecraft’s. In fact, all of those claims have more basis than Moore’s does. And he didn’t even read the damn thing before making the claim.

[cyberghostface]

He proved Moore right by going on to copy his work even further. Moore’s comment was about how writers are still pillaging his work and Johns goes ahead and does a story that is copy-pasting Moore’s entire structure right down to the panels and supplementary materials.

“You say I copied your work?! I’ll show you... by copying even more of your work! Nyah!”

[alicemacher]

"Keep it up and I'll do V vs Batman next! Then Aquaman vs the Fish Rapist from Neomonicon! Mwuahahah!"

Heh heh. Well, at least DC can't touch anything from Neonomicon since they didn't publish it. *huge sigh of relief*

Although now you mention it... has there ever been an "Aquaman meets the Innsmouth Deep Ones" (i.e. the original Lovecraft creatures) story? That'd have potential.

I'm still dreading what they're going to do with Promethea, though.

[lordultimus]

The Aquaman from the recent Michael Cray mini took a lot of influence from the Deep Ones.

[deathcrist2000]

I mean... Lovecraft's in the public domain, so theoretically...

[strejdaking]

No he didn't. Just because that's what he's doing now, doesn't mean that's waht Blackest Night was.

Look, there are a lot of valid reasons for Moore to be bitter and pissed, but a writer writing in a shared universe using elements Moore introduced for that universe simply isn't among it.

[strejdaking]

Eh. I wouldn't disagree Moore is a pretentious jerk who allowed his legitimite grievances to make him lose any objectivity, but if there is anything he has right to be pissed about, shouldn't it be the company he made millions with one of the most respected works of the medium that screwed him over to keep ownership of said work now using it to seemingly blame him for their own unpopular decisions?

[tcampbell1000]

Moore got on the "grim and gritty ruined everything" bandwagon a lot sooner than DC did (for the best example, see the Supreme scans hitting SD now), so I doubt that he'd object in principle to a story that played with that sort of theme. No, Moore's been pretty consistent that he never has and never will want any kind of revisiting of the Watchmen characters.

Which is his right, but at some point he crossed over from simply heaping scorn on the company to heaping scorn on anyone who worked for it or even consumed its product-- criminalizing anyone who didn't follow his hoped-for boycott, for any reason. And it was around then that I felt like making an excuse and ducking out of his cocktail party.

[strejdaking]

I know that, but there is a difference between "I regret contributing to this" and "it is my personal fault alone every stupid thing they did happened". Also a difference between you saying it about yourself and people who screwed you doing so while doing the one thing they know you hate. Especially, since frankly, Watchmen role in the worst of the grim and gritty shit is a lot smaller than comon wisdom claims it is.

Sure, I said I don't disagree his general attitude has been petty and irrational, I just sympathize with him being bitter in this particular case.

[tcampbell1000]

You're right that Watchmen is just one example of a whole wave that flowed in mostly during the 1980s.

It's hard for me to read "here's a Watchmen sequel, get excited!" as in any way compatible with "please blame Watchmen for everything you don't like about our company." But who knows how Alan sees that one.

[strejdaking]

Why is that incompatible? It's just hypocritical. This is the same company that hyped return of Kara Zor El Supergirl, only to turn her, presumably to subvert the original incarnation, into an insufferable, creepily sexualised asshole and straight amde an issue calling fans entitled shitheads for wanting her to be like Kara Zor El. Or Geoff Johns writing Infinite Crisis, a story where evil Silver Age fanboys try to rewrite reality for becoming too dark and then moving on to be Geoff Johns. And I said "seemingly", because it's possible it will end up more even handed but so far it still seems to be positioning Watchmen as the being to blame for the Dark Age of Comics and New 52 (Rebirth's narrative since the begining was that New 52) failed due to "lack of hope"). Like, blatantly so.

Honestly, little insulted at the implication this is somehow clearly wrong and only a nutso like Moore would believe it.

[tcampbell1000]

That implication wasn't my intention. This thread's mostly been about what's in Moore's head, and I'm admitting that when it comes to this specific case, I just don't know. I've shared pretty much all the insight I have on that topic, so I'm leaving it behind.

I imagine we'd agree that Johns asking "Why are superhero comics just so darn dark?" is like the Childish Gambino meme at this point. But when analyzing messages sent by companies-- always a difficult game, as "companies" don't really have feelings or minds-- the capitalist imperative is always a good thing to remember.

There may have been some issues in marketing that led people to expect a different Supergirl than they got back in the day, but the Kar-is Hilton stories were trying to sell their new vision of the character at the expense of the old. Infinite Crisis tried to push DC's "trinity" to a lighter place, ultimately at the expense of the leftover Crisis on Infinite Earths characters that weren't doing anything else. But is Watchmen II really here to promote itself at the expense of... Watchmen?

I mean, maybe it is. God knows I have trouble making any sense out of its themes at this point. But that just seems weirdly suicidal, from a capitalist point of view. Unlike Earth-Prime Superboy and (at that point in time) Classic Innocent Supergirl, the Watchmen are still a going concern. Their book is still in print (insert low Northamptonite growling here) and they're going to be a TV series soon (growling intensifies). I'm sure spite can occasionally motivate creative work, but does it really seem likely that DC would intentionally prioritize spite over money?

(And just to be clear, this isn't about what you or I believe would make them the most money. Kari Ryan, Supergirl of Nine, was a misstep even in a market that's often fueled by outrage, and the CW has found a much more marketable interpretation of the character. But at the time, DC seemed to believe that Jersey Zor-El (I've got a million of 'em) was where the character's short-term commercial future lay, so it made sense for them to commit to that direction.)

[tcampbell1000]

PS: We all know one of those mimes is going to die, right?

I can't tell if that quote is serious or not

[deh_tommy]

Welp, there goes my soul. I'm sorry for enjoying this, so off I go into eternal damnation (though truth be told, that's not like I was going to go anywhere else).

Re: I can't tell if that quote is serious or not

[alicemacher]

Don't worry. Grant Morrison will draw a sigil, invoke a pop culture icon as a god, enter Hell and rescue you and all the others Moore has damned. Just to spite him, you understand.

Re: I can't tell if that quote is serious or not

[deh_tommy]

I know Alan Moore seems to dabble in the occult, so I'm just a bit spooked is all.

[locuatico]

Okay. I am going to say something nice: I do like these two characters.
I like their origin, I like the characters. I like that they are basically a... healthier... and more functional version of the Harley/Joker dynamic (WITHOUT forcing Harley to be in a relationship with her abuser) and I like that they are motivated by the search of their kid.

Now, having said that....... why the F*** are they in this story? what purpose do they actually serve? why was it necessary for them to be from the watchmen universe?
I mean, Rorschach 2.0 at least has his origin deeply tied up to events and characters of the original Watchmen. but these 2? why is the story giving them so much focus?

[trooper924]

What's the point of anything in this godforsaken story? Geoff Jones threw a bunch of random crap together and then rearranged it into something that vaguely resembled Watchmen.

[locuatico]

the point is, Geoff wanted to play with the watchmen characters and go "hey! wouldn't it be cool if *rolls dice* Batman and Ozymandias met!" (The answer is: no). which, fair enough I guess.

but they don't make sense here even if taking that into account.

[trooper924]

Like I said, random crap.

"And wouldn't it be cool to see...*rolls dice*...Watchmen versions of the Joker and Harley Quinn!"

[thanekos]

Hey, come on - riffs on originally-Charlton-characters Punch and Jewelee is the most cleverness this series' had so far.

[trooper924]

Count me in the "hate" camp. Sure, I think Alan Moore's become a pretentious prick in his later years, but this is just garbage. It's a meandering mess that does not understand or respect the original series and has no reason for existing.

[strejdaking]

I would argue there being no point to it-IF, and I am in no way convinced that there shoud, but if there are gonna be works using Watchmen characters, then putting them next to DC heroes is about the only thing you could do that isn't 100% pointless. Speaking of, holy fuck, that TV show is apparently really happening. And it's written by that Lindelof guy? Holy fuck.

[cyberghostface]

So how did Riddler go from buff with sideburns to Frank Gorshin?

[long_silence]

Wasn't the War of Jokes and Riddles set in the past?

[cyberghostface]

I have no idea how continuity works in DC anymore but Selina and Joker both discussed his sideburns in #49 which took place in the present.

[long_silence]

Maybe there's 3 Riddlers

[kamino_neko]

I'm currently working under the assumption that either a) despite statements to the contrary (and a reference to Sanctuary in this issue), this isn't actually set in the main universe...there's a lot of issues like that that don't blend well, even with the 'one year in the future' aspect, or b) this is a new Riddler...Ed's one of the characters theoretically on the chopping block in Heroes in Crisis...maybe he doesn't make it.

[kamino_neko]

(Conversely, c) like Batman's costume, this is just Gary Frank not really giving a flip about the character's regular design in the current comics.)

[beeyo]

Thank god it wasn't just me that noticed. I actually prefer the New 52 look too, so this got on my nerves more than it probably should have.

Sidenote: Remember way back in New 52 Batman #1, where Capullo had him rocking a ninja turtle mask and a green patch of hair in the shape of a question mark? Good times.

[thanekos]

Alan Moore is Pinhead, and DC's use of his work is a mythopoetic Lament Configuration.

[deathcrist2000]

Ah yes, Doomsday Clock #6: the one where Grant Morrison is inexplicably an evil police officer. Because if you're going to do a comic where one of Alan Moore's mates gets glassed, why not go after everyone who isn't Frank Miller! God, this fucking comic.

[laughing_tree]

Grant Morrison?

[deathcrist2000]

Grant Morrison.

[tcampbell1000]

Honestly, I wouldn't read too much into that one, considering Grant currently freelances directly under Geoff. Sometimes people just draw their buddies in because they need a quick model for a character.

[deathcrist2000]

Fair enough, though reading into both Moore's and Morrison's mystical systems for too long makes one think otherwise...

[aperturedreams]

Doomsday Clock has plenty of problems, but that's absolutely ridiculous. Are you going to say that any bald character is Grant Morrison now?

[deathcrist2000]

No, but bald characters wearing clothing that evokes Grant’s author photo...

[trooper924]

Wait, what was that about Alan Moore's mate?

[deathcrist2000]

Yeah, the comic in the third issue who gets a bottle thrown at his face is Stewart Lee, who's a mate of Alan's. Yeah...

[trooper924]

Wow. That's....wow.

[strejdaking]

Speaking of Morrison, honestly suprised they didn't at least try to get him to write this. As some one else said, if you're gonna screw over Moore like this, might as well get his arch-enemy.

[shadowpsykie]

see. Watchmen was interesting.. we knew what it was about from the beginning... what the HELL is this about? there has been no presidence for why the world is the way it is... the only way this would make sense is if this was an else world because we don't see anything here touching on main DC OTHER than flashpoint and the button...