[identity profile] bluefall.insanejournal.com posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Recently, the issue of Catwoman's origin came up. Specifically, the post-Crisis Y1 retcon that she was a prostitute, inspired by "real man" Batman to dress up like a loony and follow in his footsteps, or something; the subsequent Zero Hour retcon to something much better; and the innumerable other retcons that ignored the Zero Hour retcon in favor of Miller's take, only more XTREEM, adding rape, underaged victimization, etc etc.

And since everything is more clear with scans, I thought I'd post those two different takes, so everybody can see the contrast for themselves.




Here's the first we see of prostitute!Selina, in the ever-famous BATMAN: YEAR ONE.



Bruce doesn't do totally awesome and Holly and some of the other girls join the fight, causing Bruce to whack Holly, so Selina jumps in. Literally.



That's all we get of her there; Bruce runs off and Selina doesn't show again until two issues later.





Selina and Holly show up at the scene to rubberneck, while Batman and a siamese cat hide out from the cops. Bats fights his way out, clobbering a dude for shooting at the cat. It's unclear how much of this Holly and Selina see, or what they think about it - the extent of their presence or commentary is this:



A month later, Selina decks a guy who's probably supposed to be her pimp (the same guy who was authoritatively hassling Holly earlier when Bruce interfered).



Then a month after that, she jumps inexplicably out a window.



... why on earth did Brubaker like Holly?

Quite some time after that, Selina is inexplicably contemplating possible wealthy targets for theft.



The place she decides to hit, Batman is already at for recon. For no clear reason, she just hops around out front clawing the shit out of people until everyone is down, which is significantly more showy and wasteful than simply scratching one guy in the privacy of his room in proper cat burglar style.



(That's Batman on the roof she's seeing there.)

The only fallout we see:



"Cat burglaries"? Yeah, no. Beating the shit out of everybody in the entire place and then walking out in broad moonlight with valuables under your arm is not "cat burglary," by any stretch of the imagination.

Aaaaand.... that's it. That's the full extent of the New Origin Of Catwoman.

Um. The hell, Miller? In what universe was that Selina? I mean, besides yours, obviously.

Now, Selina as a prostitute is really problematic in and of itself; that's my feminism-informed opinion there. You will find many other feminsts out there who strongly disagree (though the question of being wholly inspired by Batman remains). Sex work, and the portrayal thereof (particularly by people not involved in the trade), is one of the messiest tangles in a messy, tangled movement.

However, here's my biggest thing about this. Even before I'm a feminist, I am a storyteller - and on that count, even above and beyond the gender issue of it, Selina as a prostitute is utter fail because it is simply bad storytelling. It does not make sense! Selina is a cat burglar. Prostitute to cat burglar is no way a logical shift. (And make no mistake, it is very much a shift - she stops being a prostitute and starts being a master thief. This is not an addition to her life or expansion of her habits, this is a complete track-jumping reinvention.) What the hell did seeing Bruce inspire her to change about herself? To step outside the law? Little late for that. To go ahead and take what she wanted from the world, openly expressing her contempt of those who possess the riches she can easily pluck from them? From what we see of Miller's professional domme, she's got that more than covered with her day job. To do something expressive and physical and active with her body? Come on! Even Miller's weirdass take on her here where being Catwoman is all about getting to claw people's faces or some stupid shit like that isn't anything her S&M clients don't offer.

Selina is a sassy, independent thrillseeker and lover of luxury who believes she deserves what she can earn with her unique skills, regardless of what the law says about it. What part of that profile, which of those needs was not already being met by her sex work that being Catwoman was a remarkable improvement on? Assuming, of course, the most favorable interpretation of Miller's prostitute!Selina. If she was freer, safer, and more in control of her life as Catwoman than as a pro, we're right back to indisputable sexist "sex crime victim fights back" tropes (which we were anyway post-Miller, of course, but I'm trying to be thorough, here).

And then there's the skillset itself. Selina's, so impressive and masterful that it can only have been a lifelong effort, is that of the thief: stealth, lock- and pocket-picking, acrobatics, specialized tool use (crampons, glass-cutters, d-cel), and, at this point in her canon, big cat taming - things that one learns for the express purpose of theft, develops through a repeated reliance on theft, or turns to theft as a result of possessing. None of which makes any sense from prostitute!Selina, who never needed or intended theft to be her main source of income and self-satisfaction prior to seeing Batman and most assuredly did not possess the time or resources to master between first seeing Batman and becoming the Catwoman who so easily vexed him.

Not to mention what it does to the romance - nothing says "equal partner" like "would never have found my true calling without following in your shadow," amirite?

To our rescue, though, thankfully, comes Moench and the post-ZH retcon. He starts, appropriately enough, with Selina's early childhood.



Selina is a bit of a problem child, unsurprising from a girl whose mother commited suicide and whose father has not really ascended from his drunken haze since. Her teachers stress that she's smart, and loves gym class (particularly acrobatics), but just doesn't make an effort or engage with anyone.

Her dad doesn't care, exactly. He basically can't. Eventually, Selina finds him dead too, and just walks out of the house, leaving the door open and letting the dozens of cats scatter to the four winds.

She gets caught within a week.





Shockingly, she does not adjust her attitude. She does sneak around a lot, though, and learns the alarm code.





She gets strapped for that, then chucked in solitary confinement in the attic. Which is not even remotely an obstacle for young Selina, but does manage to piss her off.



The director hasn't been finessing the finances so much as cheerfully and blatantly butchering them, putting less than forty percent of the hundreds of thousands in funding from the state to the actual institution and pocketing the rest. Selina confronts her with this knowledge... in very adolescent style, with no clear plan, just a sort of thoughtless implied blackmail. This gets her chloroformed and dropped in the river.

Doesn't stop her, though.



She takes the director's ill-gotten expensive jewelry, turns off the alarm and tells the other kids to scatter, and sets off into Gotham, alone.





(I like how Moench takes a moment here to try to reconcile that Miller scene a bit; the visual of those panels specifically has a lot of traction and has been repeated often, and incorporating instead of trying to bury it was a smart move. Not effective, sadly, but still smart.)

She goes on to have a few tussles with Batman, who can often styme her thefts but never manages to bring her in, and the story finally catches up with the present day, and a Selina who is everything her younger self wanted to be; comfortable, rich, sought after more than seeking... the ultimate cat.



See, now that actually makes sense as a Catwoman origin, and I'd ask where all the sexism went, but you know what? I don't really miss it.

Cooke, Moore and Brubaker did, apparently, but that's a different story, which I have no stomach for telling. Y'all will have to get someone else to take on *that* particular headache.

Scans from BATMAN #404-407 (collected in BATMAN YEAR ONE of course) and CATWOMAN #0 (eight and a third pages of twenty-four).

Date: 2009-05-01 12:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] richiedaley.insanejournal.com
I always did really like Moench's take on Selina.

Date: 2009-05-01 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mysteryfan.insanejournal.com
Prostitute to cat burglar is no way a logical shift.

And then there's the skillset itself. Selina's, so impressive and masterful that it can only have been a lifelong effort, is that of the thief: stealth, lock- and pocket-picking, acrobatics, specialized tool use (crampons, glass-cutters, d-cel), and, at this point in her canon, big cat taming - things that one learns for the express purpose of theft, develops through a repeated reliance on theft, or turns to theft as a result of possessing. None of which makes any sense from prostitute!


Agreed. Well said!

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From: [identity profile] lovedatjoker.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-05-01 08:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-05-01 12:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mysteryfan.insanejournal.com
Oh, and I like this, too. It IS smart.
I like how Moench takes a moment here to try to reconcile that Miller scene a bit; the visual of those panels specifically has a lot of traction and has been repeated often, and incorporating instead of trying to bury it was a smart move. Not effective, sadly, but still smart.


Date: 2009-05-01 12:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mysteryfan.insanejournal.com
Also, thanks for pointing out that she couldn't be a thief who gives Batman any kind of run for his money without having had the prior time being, you know, a thief, who's pretty well-established at her job (of being a thief) by the time she actually becomes Catwoman.

You know what, though? Personally I think I'm tired of origin stories. It's just my own personal take, but I think I officially just realized I am.

Date: 2009-05-01 12:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] icon_uk.insanejournal.com
To be fair, a few of those skills would make a certain amount of sense for someone who never wanted to risk getting trapped by a bad customer, possibly from experience; Someone locks you in, you want to know at least two different ways of getting out, either picking a lock or going out a window.

Good god, I'm defending Miller's Y1... I need some SLEEP!

And I agree, I loved the Zero Hour Catwoman origin...

Date: 2009-05-01 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thehefner.insanejournal.com
Is Y1 something that one should feel guilty for defending? I suppose this is a question that should be better addressed in the book club, but man, this post was the first time I thought, "Huh, so okay, Y1 is not as near-perfect as I've increasingly thought over the years."

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Date: 2009-05-01 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lovedatjoker.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
Sex workers also use intuition, perception of body language and vocal tone, to read clients and figure out who's bad news. We also develop a range of strategies in dealing with troublesome clients (who aren't necessarily always violent yannow). It's not all just helpless-once-in-the-room - the job is incredibly active and interactive from the moment you start speaking to the potential client and you learn FAST.

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Date: 2009-05-01 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zhinxy.insanejournal.com
I love the Zero Hour origin too, but because it includes cat-burglar training, and an utterly brilliant parental neglect/suicide origin that perfectly parallels the murder in Bruce's past with a loss that's just as explanatory for Selina, not because it doesn't include sex work. Though actually, it does, even if she's only rolling her clients, and frankly, Miller's Selina sure looks like she's rolled her share of clients. And really, that's the big problem with Miller's origin, (Besides a little too much Bat-worship) that it doesn't explain her other skills, not that they can't be RECONCILED with Selina as a sex worker, for more than the need for protection, and heck, she could have more than a few of them just for self-enrichment. Or because she thought it would be fun... I can crack several models of safe and pick a lotta locks and it's just because I like to know how, (And I like catwoman too much, I'm sure that's a factor) I've never used it. I can also hotwire cars and have a basic idea of how to make shoes, and I've taken pottery classes... blah blah blah, and so could any sex worker, plumber, sailor, soldier or tinker or tailor. Does it really line up with her being the best thief in the DCU as Miller presented it though.. No. But it would have lined up just as badly if she was a schoolteacher. And really, there's very problematic othering implied in the notion that she'd only have them to avoid abuse at the hands of clients. Sex workers ARE abused and mistreated, but SO ARE OTHER women, no woman is safe, and the constant portrayal of them as "designated victims" feeds othering and stereotypes. Those skills make sense for somebody who's already a cat burglar AND a sex worker, and really, I can see that for Selina. If miller had gone with THAT, or gone with it more clearly, I should say, it would have worked like gangbusters.

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Date: 2009-05-01 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thehefner.insanejournal.com
The Brubaker/Cooke/Cameron/Pulido Catwoman is more sexist than the Balent era? Well crap, at the risk of both touching upon an unpleasant ranty subject AND ruining my enjoyment of those stories... how so?

The thing I loved about that run was that it felt so refreshingly character-based and down-to-earth, rather than Balent's breasticaboobical chesticamammical pendular globular "fun." Maybe the content of those actual stories had character depth, but I never was able to read them carefully enough, because the art turned me off so badly.

Whereas the Brubaker stuff just seemed do much more down-to-earth, almost with an indie flair, which I really liked (that is, until the editors deemed it return to gratutious T&A, and order Paul Gulacy on the book; I dropped it after two issues and clearly it was all downhill after that). It'd be sad to learn that my sexism-dar was off.

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Date: 2009-05-01 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.insanejournal.com
I can't begin to list all the ways that second story is better. First, Selina's such an individual in it, one who spent her life training for the job she has--something I always love in Batman stories where these people aren't granted super powers. It's like somebody actually thought about what kind of girl would grow up to be Catwoman. She makes age-appropriate mistakes, too. And she's barely inspired by Bruce. She's more defying him early on--like, if you think Bats are great, wait until you see a Cat.

Also I'm struck by how that second origin so clearly marks her as a parallel and equal to Bruce, the way both of them are driven and focused from a young age to their goal. Plus, I'm a bigger lover of thief characters and this gets that she's a thief rather than a supervillain who happens to wear a cat costume so we'll call her a catburglar. As you say in the commentary, it doesn't get less catburglar than beating people up and stomping in to steal things. If you happen to watch the show Leverage, Selina has a lot more in common with the cat burglar character Parker, but they're having her act like the muscle of the group, Elliot.

Finally, I'm a sucker for using the animal to characterize her. I love the way it takes things about cats and shows why she'd be attracted to them, especially the way it's not just the sexy personality traits but ones that would genuinely make people dislike her. In my head I think I always start with some sort of totem idea for the early crew--Bruce=bat, Selina=cat, Dick=Robin (even if that last one could have originally meant a different kind of robin).

Thanks for posting these!

Date: 2009-05-01 09:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashtoreth.insanejournal.com
What other kind of robin?

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Date: 2009-05-01 02:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] benicio127.insanejournal.com
HOMG. I had actually just scanned some Y1 bat/cat "moments" and here you go posting it.

Frank Miller's Catwoman origin. Here's the thing. It's not bad that she's a prostitute, I for one am certainly not offended by that, however, what offends me is that that's Miller's way of doing dark and bad! femme fatales. It's that idea that she sees Batman and it "saves" her from her life of prostitution. I just have problems with Miller's idea of women. (This notion that bad grrrl = prostitute (see Sin City)). You don't get very many Carrie Kellys in the bag.

Sex work, and the portrayal thereof (particularly by people not involved in the trade), is one of the messiest tangles in a messy, tangled movement.

So definitely agreed.

However, having said that, I do think she fits very well as a domme or a Madam coz, well, she kinda is a dominatrix.

But I don't think it's anti-feminist that she's inspired by Batman and decides to don her leather outfit and whip, as we see in the other origin. I mean, he's a "hero", many people in the Batuniverse are inspired by him. I think it further clinches the tie between them.
(Those are my jumbled thoughts and I know you never said it is anti-feminist for origin 2, but just differentiating btwn the two, if that makes sense).

Date: 2009-05-01 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zhinxy.insanejournal.com
What ameliorates the MILLER!ORIGIN! for me on this point is the role they play in each other's costumed beginnings. It's after tangling with Selina and her pals that he sits in front of the window, wondering how to make his enemies fear him, then it's after seeing Batman that Selina is inspired. Still problematic, still too much Frank Miller REAL!MAN!, sure, but forming a story-bond between them and having the future Catwoman be part of his origin in a subtle way. Year One is full of Miller's best and worst tendencies as a writer, I shall go on about this sometime and place it's a-called for. ;)

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Date: 2009-05-01 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sailorlibra.insanejournal.com
While I can see why you'd prefer the Moench origin, I've honestly always hated it. It's good in all its particulars, but I don't like the way he pulled it off. I guess that's related to me never liking Moench's Catwoman, period. She was never really out of character during his run, but she still bothered me.

And the whole falling in love with a serial killer really didn't help.

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Date: 2009-05-01 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mykie1234.insanejournal.com
I'm an unabashed fan of Miller's Year One but I've got to say that the second Selina origin given here was always my favourite. She's the best in the world. That takes time and study. Maybe it loses a little bit of the pizzas of WHORESWHORESWHORES but it is more thought out.

Date: 2009-05-01 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thebigapricot.insanejournal.com
I am fond of Y1 but always hated Miller's origin story for Selina. I could never reconcile this tough slum living prostitute with the high life living Selina.

Moench's take is clunky to be sure but the background he develops for makes sense for the later "sophisticated" Catwoman.

Date: 2009-05-01 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] toasty_fresh.insanejournal.com
Oh man what a good origin! Idgaf what Cooke, Moore, and Brubaker think; give me this Catwoman any day . . .

Date: 2009-05-01 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] runespoor7.insanejournal.com
Something that bothers me a lot in Moench's origin story is how introverted Selina is as a child. His Selina is alone, and she doesn't want to have contact with people. That's not something I ever got from Selina; she's independent, but her people skills are good.

Date: 2009-05-01 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zhinxy.insanejournal.com
They are, but she's also got a long standing history of being afraid of dependency and close relationships, a reason that I think Moench's parental suicide origin is briliant, and makes a perfect compliment to the murder in Batman's origin. (And Brubaker, at least, kept THAT.) She's been a chameleon from the earliest conception of her, a mistress of disguise and charm, but since the bronze age has not only an independent nature but genuine problems with closeness (As Bats does for his own reasons), and that does fit with an introverted, neglected child who learned over time to play the social games. Who may even greatly WANT contact and closeness, knows how to play it and get it, but will always have problems with having it, and that to me is quite a bit of Selina.

Date: 2009-05-01 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] retro_nouveau.insanejournal.com
Selina is a sassy, independent thrillseeker and lover of luxury who believes she deserves what she can earn with her unique skills, regardless of what the law says about it.

That's absolutely right by me. I would add, speaking personally and not canonically, that she doesn't have a problem at all with "victimless" crimes. She would sleep very easily knowing that the end result is that losses are compensated and insurance rates are increased a few bucks.

Another factor in Selina's origin that I now find indispensable is the Dini thing where she supports wilderness preservation for big cats.

I can't reconcile Selina ever having been a prostitute, given her very independent nature. I think that if her situation became desperate, she would go straight to stealthy theft, do not pass robbery, do not collect $200 for turning a trick. In my fanon, she obtained her first whip from an unscrupulous lion trainer at a circus. If Indiana Jones can pick up a whip without having been a dominatrix earlier in life, Selina Kyle can too.

Incredible Squee!

Date: 2009-05-01 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mysteryfan.insanejournal.com
Another factor in Selina's origin that I now find indispensable is the Dini thing where she supports wilderness preservation for big cats.

I can't reconcile Selina ever having been a prostitute, given her very independent nature. I think that if her situation became desperate, she would go straight to stealthy theft, do not pass robbery, do not collect $200 for turning a trick. In my fanon, she obtained her first whip from an unscrupulous lion trainer at a circus. If Indiana Jones can pick up a whip without having been a dominatrix earlier in life, Selina Kyle can too.


So much yes!!!! :) :) :) :)

*LOVES*

So Much.

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Date: 2009-05-01 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lovedatjoker.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
You know... scans_daily has it down in that it takes into account women read here. It even goes so far as to often take into account that people of colour and queer people read here.

It falls down in other ways. Like, it never seems to consider that oh, I dunno... actual sex workers may read here? Sex workers who may have an investment in seeing a famous, popular, adored and major character like Catwoman with a sex worker past? Of course, it'll be a cold day in hell when a honest-to-goodness heroine/hero is ever depicted as one without it having been a horrible! traumatic! event, but hell... Miller served up a pretty good deal, all things considered. Especially when you consider the way his successors fucked it up.

C'mon scans_daily. Live up to your claims of inclusivity and think about who's reading... and how they might be personally affected by what you say.

Date: 2009-05-01 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] batcookies.insanejournal.com
I can understand why it hits home for you, and I sympathize. But I'm sorry, I still think it's phenomenally bad writing on Miller's part to look at the most famous woman in comics (which Catwoman probably is) and decide her story should be "former prostitute that one day saw A REAL MAN and decided to spontaneously turn into the world's greatest thief, while dressing as a cat for some reason".

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(frozen)

Date: 2009-05-01 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lovedatjoker.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)
You know... scans_daily has it down in that it takes into account women read here. It even goes so far as to often take into account that people of colour and queer people read here.

It falls down in other ways. Like, it never seems to consider that oh, I dunno... actual sex workers may read here? Sex workers who may have an investment in seeing a famous, popular, adored and major character like Catwoman with a sex worker past? Of course, it'll be a cold day in hell when a honest-to-goodness heroine/hero is ever depicted as one without it having been a horrible! traumatic! event, but hell... Miller served up a pretty good deal, all things considered. Especially when you consider the way his successors fucked it up.

C'mon scans_daily. Live up to your claims of inclusivity and think about who's reading... and how they might be personally affected by what you say. Otherwise it's all just bullshit lip service.

Now as for your comments, bluefall:
Yes there's a problem with non sex workers writing about the industry, especially considering the kind of discriminations and prejudices held by the majority of society that affect the portrayal. However, this problem is similar to writing characters of colour, characters with disability, queer characters, etc, etc, etc by people who are outside of those marginalised groups. Does this mean it shouldn't be done? Or attempted? Or allowed to fail? Or criticised?
Frankly, if that's the attitude we're going to take, the only people who have the right to then criticise these portrayals are sex workers themselves, and that cuts you out.
You're not being exactly aware here. You're talking about feminism and sex work as though they're separate movements and never intersect where there are a huge number of self-identified sex worker feminists who would disagree with you based on their lived experience. Why is prostitute to cat burglar such an impossible shift unless you think a prostitute has to be ultimately defined only by her work? I'm a hooker who'd like to write comics. By your logic, that also doesn't make sense. You say that Catwoman as prostitute is problematic due to your feminist education, but in what way do you mean this? You don't even qualify that and feminism isn't a hivemind: you could just as easily mean it's problematic because there was no consultation with sex workers prior to writing it as you could mean it's problematic because sex work is a horrible, horrible, horrible industry ALL women are forced into and how DARE they do to Selina as you could mean Selina would never "degrade" herself like that (which is kinda coming across subtextually in your post anyway...).

Frankly, as a hooker I'm never anywhere near as offended by Miller's hookers as I am by SVU. And I'm a rabid sex worker activist do-it-right-whorephobe fuckers bitch.

If she was freer, safer, and more in control of her life as Catwoman than as a pro, we're right back to indisputable sexist "sex crime victim fights back" tropes.

You get it right here, at least. Oh, except for your presumptuous appropriation of language. Who the hell uses 'a pro' anymore outside the movies anyway?

I'm sure there's more I haven't covered, possibly even more I may agree with you on, but I need to step back for a breath.

(frozen)

Date: 2009-05-02 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kitty_tc_69.insanejournal.com
Quite frankly, you're starting to piss me off. You demand respect and understanding from others, while providing none in return. You react with "abuse and vitriol" to every perceived slight, even for the sin of holding a different opinion than you, but you're quick to flame. And however valid your position may be, your approach is borderline troll behavior and is quite unlikely to win any supporters because of how aggressively you're framing your points.

And a few points of my own in rebuttal:

One, it's entirely possible to have a disapproving view of sex work without condemning sex workers. While it's certainly true that many do hold horrible bigotry against sex workers, not everyone does and it is possible to separate the two opinions. For example, have you ever seen the show "Dirty Jobs"? There's no doubt that the show views the featured occupations as having a deeply distasteful work environment and the work as difficult and unpleasant, but those doing the jobs are never condemned, instead praised as brave and resilient for being able to do them. Have you ever considered that people may be able to hold an opinion of sex work as "difficult and unpleasant" or even simple "something I could never do" but hold no condemnation whatsoever of those who do? Considering the tolerant and broad-minded nature of this community, I'd suspect you'll find that attitude far more commonplace than the bigotry you're accusing.

Secondly, your "investment" is a selfish one. Selina spent half a century without a "sex worker past", and adding it onto her was a sharp retcon. Much like the "investment" handicapped people have in Barbara Gordon as Oracle, it's not fair for a minority to claim a pre-existing character for their own that way. It's fine to want more minority representation in media, but it's wrong to convert already established characters into minorities unless it somehow fits the character and is an organic and natural progression of their story.

Also, you're ignoring the points of the "sex worker to cat burglar transition" position in order to paint it as merely a function of prejudice and nothing more. Many have stated, in my opinion correctly, that the second origin makes far more sense because it depicts a lifelong background of training and learning, as well as a natural talent, for the skills she displays as Catwoman. They believe that it's nonsensical for a woman with no background in any of those talents and abilities to suddenly develop them on a whim, which is essentially what Miller depicts. It's akin to a lifelong chef suddnenly deciding to become an architect --sure, such a shift in interest is possible, but gaining the skills and training necessary for the new profession is nowhere so simple. If there were years between where the newly-inspired Selina trained and acquired the skills she'd use as Catwoman, that'd be one thing, but there's not. And it still wouldn't go as far to explain her extraordinary degree of ability as the lifelong pursuit she displays in the second origin. To ignore these points and claim it's all about bigotry is a straw man, plain and simple.

To be honest, you seem to have come into this entire discussion with a chip on your shoulder, and I doubt I'm the only one put off by it. You'd win a lot more friends and supporters to your position if you toned down the aggression.

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Date: 2009-05-01 10:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashtoreth.insanejournal.com
So I'm the only one who'd prefer a Catwoman who started out as a rich socialite and does it all for fun and a growing social conscience?

Date: 2009-05-01 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.insanejournal.com
I'd go for that too. A rich socialite could have some of the same personality traits as the girls-school version, and also give her the time and money to really hone her skills. She'd be like a female Raffles-type. Works for me1

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Date: 2009-05-02 02:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] espanolbot.insanejournal.com
I prefer the Brubaker/Cooke/Stewart origin, which combined all of the elements of the above.

Date: 2013-07-10 02:40 am (UTC)
doghcat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] doghcat
Lovely, thank you! :D

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Scans Daily
Founded by girl geeks and members of the slash fandom, [community profile] scans_daily strives to provide an atmosphere which is LGBTQ-friendly, anti-racist, anti-ableist, woman-friendly and otherwise discrimination and harassment free.

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