Amazing Spider-Man #650: Context

[stolisomancer]

cyberghostface's continued posts on Amazing Spider-Man are the single greatest example of Accentuate the Negative I have ever seen in my life, but today's post on the topic of issue #650 really pushed it too far.


By posting two panels without context from issue #650, cyberghostface managed to create a scene that reads entirely differently than what is actually in the issue itself. cyberghostface's post from earlier today is, in short, a hit piece; it is divorcing a scene from its surroundings to make it look worse than it actually is.





There's a lot you can say about this scene. The first thing that jumped out at me when I read it was eating a donut and a hamburger at the same time, because that does not sound good at all, but somebody's eating those fucking Krispy Kreme burgers so who cares.

Second, there's that first page, where Mary Jane is thinking faster on her feet than Peter is, and is doing more than her share to help maintain the secret identity. That is not a stupid woman.

Third, the second page, when you get the follow-up panel with Mary Jane, just makes Dan Slott look like a moron. I'm not sure what that was meant to accomplish, aside from Slott not taking the time to research pseudo-scientific gobbledygook or something that sounded like a fashion term; the scene isn't from either MJ or Peter or Carlie's perspective as written. It's like the omniscient narrator isn't paying any attention.

The scene as written just doesn't work very well. It happens.

Yanking the first two panels off of the second page and using it as yet another batch of grist for the "hey guys, let's all sit around and hate on Quesada/Amazing Spider-Man/Dan Slott" mill, though, is simply dishonest. It's the exact opposite of thoughtful critique, it irritates the hell out of me, and it represents just about ninety fucking percent of the reactions to Amazing Spider-Man on s_d since "One More Day": people taking one or two or four pages out of any semblance of context and using it to wail about how much the book sucks now.

I figure I like about thirty-five to forty percent of the issues since "One More Day"; I jump on and off depending on the creative team. (Waid, Wells, and Van Lente have done great work. Guggenheim, not so much. Slott usually has good jokes and action scenes but lousy characterization, but even he did great on "Mysterioso" with Marcos Martin.) "One More Day" was a mistake; "One Moment in Time" compounded it; and everything Quesada has said about it or Mary Jane has been accompanied by him corkscrewing his foot further into his mouth.

Thus, it's not that I'm a big fan of the character, the company, or the creators. It's that people are still passing this crap around, absorbing just as little of the book as they can to maintain the illusion that it's a black hole of pure suck (rather than the "throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks" smorgasbord it's been for the last few years), spinning the facts as hard as they can (Amazing Spider-Man has been in the top twenty comics of the month, every month, for the entirety of 2010, usually holding down two to three spots, but no, go ahead and pretend that it's a failure) to maintain that perfect air of jaded comic-book-fan ennui. This is pointless, intellectually dishonest bullshit that does a disservice to just about everyone and everything that participates in it, and people in this community have not only done better, but do better every single day.

Comments

[freezer]

Context didn't change my view at all: It's still a big fat reminder of how much chemistry Peter and MJ have and how much Peter and Carlie don't have. It's still a big fat middle finger* from the folks that brought us One More/Brand New Day


*Probably unintentional - but given the number of clearly intentional Take That's flung our way, Benefit Of the Doubt is

dammit...

[freezer]

"Benefit Of the Doubt is low."

[icon_uk]

Second, the second page, when you get the follow-up panel with Mary Jane, just makes Dan Slott look like a moron.

Can't agree with that at all. Most of us have conversations with people where we have NO idea what they're talking about so don't waste time on the details. I've worked with scientists (as an admin person) and know full well I don't understand a word of what they're talking about or be able to repeat it three minutes later. Just as they have no clue what I'm talking about when I mention something comic related.

When other people in the office talk about reality TV "stars" I glaze over internally. When I start talking about sci-fi.I'm pretty sure most of them do the same to me. It's just how life goes.

I don't think either side comes off particularly badly, it just highlights how real casual conversations can go.

[arysteia]

I'd agree if the red patches of text were just random symbols or onomatopeia or similar. But the way it says "something over MJ's head" etc every time, even though it's presumably from her POV, doesn't convey that to me at all. If I had no context, I'd think it was from the speakers' POV, and they were being bitchy on purpose. Admittedly the next frame flips the POV, but never having heard of someone seems less pointed than all the high flying planes whooshing by.

[bwhahahabeck]

This is a brilliant post and you should feel good about yourself for this. ♥

[arbre_rieur]

Agreed. It's the dishonesty that really bugs me. If something's really so horrible or offensive, there shouldn't be a need to twist facts to make your point.

[starpiper]

Er...taking a moment for an art-related question here...am I totally crazy, or does the first panel of the first page looked kind of like MJ is resting her head on Carlie's shoulder while Carlie cups her face?

Ugh, Krispy Kreme burger, what the hell is wrong with you Peter? ::nauseated::

[arysteia]

A krispy kreme burger is not actually a hamburger pattie inside a donut is it? [/afraid of America]

[arbre_rieur]

It could be from MJ's point of view in that she realizes, perhaps belatedly, that Peter and Carlie wouldn't get her reference. Or it could be an attempt at a modern version of Stan Lee-esque narration, which occasionally broke from somberness to take on a more intimate, wink-to-the-reader personality. (Think of all the "true believer" stuff.)

[darkknightjrk]

That's what I'm thinking--Slott was trying to go for a more casual, jokey tone with this issue. Like, I could totally see a joke like this working in a Scott Pilgrim world, for example.

[khamelea]

"First off, there's that first page, where Mary Jane is thinking faster on her feet than Peter is, and is doing more than her share to help maintain the secret identity. That is not a stupid woman."

This added context doesn't make it less of a "Mary Jane has less in common with Peter than Carlie Cooper" scene, which I feel was pretty much the crux of the thing?

And it doesn't really change how the device itself reads.

"'throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks' smorgasbord it's been for the last few years"

That actually sounds like a recipe for pure suck.

But maybe that's just me being so, so dishonest there!

[stolisomancer]

It's been hit or miss, but if you didn't like an arc, you had to wait at most three weeks and there was a brand new creative team that you might like instead. Roger Stern did a great Juggernaut story, Waid and Marcos Martin did a good Shocker two-parter, Van Lente did some good one-shots including a great Morbius story that ties in with Marvel Zombies, Zeb Wells's work on the book has been uniformly stellar...

It's actually a pretty cool way to do comics, and the last year or so has featured a great deal of A-list comic talent. I wouldn't mind seeing the same approach being taken to another character, like Batman or Superman; instead of having three to six independent ongoing books, put out one weekly book with proven creative teams that rotate by the arc.

[righthondude]

I was ready to thank you for this, but then you added a link to tvtropes. :p Arrrrrrrrgh I have things to do! lol
It's excellent to see the context around it though, good job

(frozen)

[fifthie]

Way to post a thread for the sake of pitching a fit at another poster, the ongoing Cyberghostface hatefest gets uglier and uglier with each iteration.

PS the ~context~ doesn't actually change anything about what people disliked about that panel but hey, thanks for playing.

(frozen)

[stolisomancer]

I bet you're lots of fun at parties.

[blackruzsa]

I don't see why people hate the panel with the silly red font, I just found it amusing. If you get past the fact that people still really hate what's NOT happening with MJ, it's innocent fun.

Although yeah, I see from here that MJ and Peter have got WAY more chemistry. Not good if they're trying to sell Carly and Peter.

Also, the art is love. I like how Carly is depicted too.

[stolisomancer]

Yeah, I go back and forth with Ramos. Sometimes he's really good and sometimes he isn't, and it seems to vary from panel to panel. That shot of MJ in the last panel of the first page is actually pretty good, but then on page two her face is roughly 33% lips.

He really lets his style run away with him sometimes.

[moneyless_jew]

What a delight this thread is. I feel like I'm on Daily Kos!

I totally agree with stoli on principle re: Joe Q but not necessarily on Spidey. I'm sure they have done some good arcs since OMD but I haven't had my interest held long enough to finish reading any of them. The Lizard thing was a great change-up concept that I felt got cheap by eating the kid. It was like, really, must we? And I own all four cuts of Dawn of the Dead, so I'm not averse to fucked-up gore or anything. It just felt very must-compete-with-DC to me, especially from a company that was at the time priding itself on doing "light, fun Spidey."

More to the point I think their entire attitude re: MJ and this entire misadventure post-OMD has really turned me off. To an extent, I know from experience that any hardworking creative personnel can begin to see their consumer as cattle - I just don't need the contempt smeared across my face, as a point of courtesy. And they're incredibly shortsighted in that while their pubescent memories of swingin' Peter may power their goals here, the reality is that in the current market fans have grown up remembering only Peter and MJ, and disliking the switch. Someday they will be the ones disenfranchised. I don't think the post-OMD status quo works and I think it profoundly weakens any good work that has been done on the book since, which is a shame. There were ways to halt the marriage, for however long such a Great Experiment was necessary, without this approach.

Again, that being said, I quite agree with stoli on the spirit of the complaint. I still fail to see the problem with the current Batman regime, for example, other than it is not the 1990s. Which weren't good for Batman, much.

[stolisomancer]

They haven't prided themselves on doing "light, fun Spidey" a hundred percent of the time in the main book for years. The new status quo begins with a story involving a drug addict eating people, the first arc post-OMD that I actually liked at all involved killer Mayan ghosts, and just this year you've got "Shed" and "Grim Hunt" in the same book with Deadpool throwing down "yo' momma" jokes. They do about one part light, fun Spidey to one part modern superhero violence to one part bloodshed and murder, much like most of the other books out there.

I don't disagree with anything else you said.

[tsunamiwombat]

I don't think Quesada is the devil, I think he just grossly miscalculated, and was lazy. People were having trouble writing Spiderman because he was married. That was effectivly the thing - these guys thought being married was boring.

HAH. Tell that to any married person.

Correction; anyone whose been married more then 2 years, newly wed kiddies who still wuv each other don't count. My parents HATED each other when they first met as teenagers. Kicking it on 25 yrs + now.

In any case, BND was handled very badly, much like that Wonderwoman Recostuming everyone likes to bitch about. Thats why I hate it.

Ironically I look at this scene, and I think MJ and Peter still have more chemistry then his lame girlfriend he's trying to hide his secret identity from. The fact that he shares this secret with MJ is baaaadd for his new relationship - admittedly theres no way around MJ knowing, but as long as she knows and Carlie doesn't, Carlie is going to be second string. Carlie also comes off as fairly vapid, completly missing MJ's effective TAUNT to both of them, "Thats the perfectly logical reason we lived in the avenger's tower."

Followed by "With SUPERMODEL GIRLFRIENDS?", which, despite Carlies insistance that 'past is past' in the next panel shows she's definatly jealous and suspicious.

Peter's handling this like a dumbass. If he really, really cared about Carlie he'd be going out of his way to assure her that she's the only woman for him now. But he's not, because he isn't.

Because he still wants MJ, and they can dance around it all they want, but all I see is two people who're going to rip off each others cloths eventually and mount each other atop Carlies broken dreams. I almost feel sad for the Mary Sue.

[freezer]

Because he still wants MJ, and they can dance around it all they want, but all I see is two people who're going to rip off each others cloths eventually and mount each other atop Carlies broken dreams. I almost feel sad for the Mary Sue.

I think that's the most irritating thing (not the worst thing; most irritating) about Nu!Spidey: If Quesada and co. want us to move on from Peter/MJ, they should go first. They're together almost as much as when they were married living together. They act like two people very much in love who aren't together anymore, aren't sure exactly why, and are both too afraid to lose what they do have to broach the subject of "maybe breaking up was a mistake."

They can throw in all the "MJ is my best friend" crap they want; these are two people who love and want each other, Sues be damned.

[mcity]

So it's not "Peter wants to be the little girl", but "Black Cat wants Peter to be the little girl".

Seriously, I'm pretty sure it's from MJ's POV. It'd be kind of hard for Slott to come up with a celebrity. In real life, we can gauge how famous a celebrity is, because we know them. Since Slott would be using a fictional celebrity, we'd have no context. Unless everyone started using thought boxes, which would be admittedly more graceful than <text>.

>The first thing that jumped out at me when I read it was eating a donut and a hamburger at the same time, because that does not sound good at all, but somebody's eating those fucking Krispy Kreme burgers so who cares.

Spider-Metabolism.

[arbre_rieur]

I'm pretty sure Marvel could get away with mentioning a real world celebrity if all they're doing is mentioning.

[hyperactivator]

So neither what Peter is working on or what MJ is working on is important to the plot. Okay.

This sucks warm hosewater! The art is so pretty and cute! The storyline is interesting and full of sweet sweet continuity! But I still can't read it without getting a OTP stomach ache.


It's stinky to be me. :(

[stolisomancer]

Yeah, the issues of ASM that I actually like are almost all ones that have bugger-all to do with Peter's love life. That's just a poisoned well at this point.

[kagome654]

I'm jumping on the 'context doesn't really change how the panel reads' wagon. I didn't think the panel was that bad in the first place, it could have even been cute without the baggage, but yeah, in this case the larger context doesn't make a whole lot of difference. It's not as if someone posted a panel of Peter slapping MJ upside the head to stir up some rage while omitting the following panel which revealed the brain slug Peter had just saved her from with his well timed slap.

[liara_shadowsong]

So... the context wasn't horrible, but it doesn't really improve what I disliked about those panels. In fact, the red text insert looks completely out of place being used in two panels a lot and none in the surrounding panels, rather than just somewhat awkward. And it's still not a well-written scene section. What they should have done, to get the intended effect without potentially looking insulting (or awkward), is to not use the randomly-inserted red text in the first place. Find something genuinely scientifically confusing to use, that only five or ten percent of the readers will understand without the aid of Wikipedia and/or knowledge of a specific comic where a fictional device was used. Give MJ a very clear facial expression of "some of those words sound vaguely familiar, but WTF are you talking about?" (there are things I don't like about this art style, but the faces can be very expressive where necessary, I'll give it that). And make up someone for the last slot, someone whose name even sounds impressive but obscure to most science-y people. Of course, that does not change the fact that the scene still reads as trying to shoehorn Carlie into a position of looking more compatible with Peter than MJ, despite the fact that what I have seen of her character development is a bit spotty, and the pairing appears to be forced and heavy-handed at times.

Also: the art in the first panel looks weird.

Also also: haven't they settled on a character design for Carlie yet?!

[stillanerd]

Also also: haven't they settled on a character design for Carlie yet?!

Apparently not. Which, being that comic books are a visual storytelling medium which has to rely on distinctive character designs as well as personality in order to be distinguishable, is a big strike against her. Especially when you consider that this issue also has ANOTHER glasses-wearing "sexy scientist" geek girl that was introduced last issue named Bella Fishbach who also appears to be set-up as a possible love interest for Peter as well.

[warpedhand]

Yeah, to me, this looks more like Slott didn't write a particularly good scene.

[stillanerd]

Thanks for putting these up. When I did a review of this issue my page and on no scans daily, this is what I had said about this scene in particular:

"... Mary Jane and Carlie (sporting yet another new hairdo) unexpectedly show up at Peter's work, which, because of the obvious awkwardness Peter feels, is initially amusing--especially given that MJ knows Peter is Spider-Man while Carlie doesn‘t. However, once Peter and Carlie start talking in scientific terms that the word balloons literally tell us are "something MJ wouldn't understand," then comes across as Slott attempting to prop Carlie up by demeaning MJ as a character (even though MJ does get the last laugh with a similar narrative technique about meeting a fashion designer neither “Pete or Carlie have ever heard of.”). Perhaps it was Slott's way of not actually wanting to make-up pseudo-scientific jargon and turning a joke out of it, but if the attempt was to show that Carlie, because she can converse on Peter’s level, is a more suitable girlfriend than MJ used to and ever could be, it instead makes Peter and Carlie look like a pair of insufferable bores. And the fact that the scene does spend enough time reminding us of Peter and MJ’s prior relationship together (via referencing them living together at Avengers Tower), it results in Peter having better chemistry when it comes to his ex than he does with his current girlfriend. "

[tokinokanatae]

I don't think the context changes anything. As was mentioned in the last thread, there was a similar scene in Power Pack where Reed Richards and James Power discussed complex science terms by putting mathematical gibberish in the word balloons, not

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I don't think the context changes anything. As was mentioned in the last thread, there was a similar scene in Power Pack where Reed Richards and James Power discussed complex science terms by putting mathematical gibberish in the word balloons, not <stuff that's way too complex for Margaret to understand> or <complete gibberish to Margaret>.

One is about showing people connecting in a way that might go over the head of others in the room. One is singling out another person as being unable to participate in the situation because they're not on the same level. In other words, the Power Pack example emphasizes Richards and Powers forming a connection, while the Spiderman example emphasizes MJ being unable to have the same connection that Carlie and Peter have.

[stolisomancer]

...which is immediately following a scene where Mary Jane covers Peter on the secret identity front, underscoring the connection she and Peter have, and followed immediately by Mary Jane discussing her own area of expertise. The first two panels of page two, taken out of context, look like an attack on MJ by the writer; in context, they're part of a larger scene in which MJ is the single most calm and confident person in the room.

Yeah..

[steverodgers5]

Gotta say, You're really stirring the pot making a post like this here.
But Kudos for standing up long enough to make it.

Oh and yeah I agree. I may detest OMD and it's crappy execution. But not all the stories that came afterward have been crap. In fact on the the whole I've enjoyed them most of them more than the vast bulk of stories in the few years before it.

But this all seems to get lost in the zeal of some folks seemingly too caught up in the shipping of MJ & Spiderman, that have taken the changes there like a stab to the heart. So much so that they're incapable of even noticing that the book and the character is still capable of having the occasional good story.

The character enjoyed a wealth of good stories before the marriage, and yet some folks seem to think that if he's not married to MJ then that it then, he's not 'their' Spiderman. If that's the case, then why even keep reading it, never mind spending so much time trying to tear it apart if the books obviously moved beyond the era that they happened to favour? I'm sure there's a lot of other good books around, that people could be reading and enjoying the direction to just now, rather than seemingly wasting their time getting themselves down by dwelling on a direction they don't like, and spending so much effort berating this book all the time.

The book was never called "The Adventures of Spiderman and his hot wife Mary Jane" She was a supporting character, and as such can be written out. Spiderman is effectively the only pivotal character in the book. Yeah these other characters can add something to the mix, but there's nothing to say that having the main character interact with new characters can't lead to more interesting stories, if given the chance. Variety is the spice of life and all that...I'm not sure why some folks can't see that. But if they don't, and they don't ever want to, then why even bother with it?

Sorry to be on the soapbox here, but the never ending hatred campaign against the book and JQ around here, does get a little tiresome after a while. I'm sure there's a lot more fun things people could be talking about..

Re: Yeah..

[kagome654]

Well, what you've got to understand is that people often enjoy commiserating with others. Tearing down something you think is god awful can be fun, and chances are if people have persisted this long they are getting something out of it. I don't think people who complain about Spidey are really as miserable (or single minded) as you (and others) may think they are. I think they continue to do it because a) they care about Spider-man/comics and b) sharing things with others, even things you hate, can be fun and helps you to express and share thoughts and ideas about whatever it is that bothers you. Also, I doubt they're limiting their reading to just books they hate (I've never understood why people seem to think that is...).

Personally I don't doubt that there have been good stories since OMD, I just don't give a shit anymore.

[cyberghostface]

I love that my post garnered such an extreme reaction. I mean wow. Especially when all this post served to do is get people to go "Yeah...the context doesn't change much..."

Also, just so you know, the title under Mackie's reboot never left the top 20 either and that was considered the lowest point of Spidey's career up until now...so...yeah.

Context doesn't change much.

[nefrekeptah]

In your post, you said, and I quote, "...the exchange is from MJ's POV. It's to show (how) stupid she is in comparison to Carlie, who "gets" Peter."

What he's saying is no, that's ridiculous. Not only is MJ not shown as an idiot, she's more on the ball then either Peter or Carlie. So yes, the context absolutely changes. By a lot.

[nefrekeptah]

THANK. YOU.

[cuntfucius]

I actually disliked the scene, but as I said before, I can pretty much tell it's my personal bias showing and not some objective viewpoint deeming this good or bad writing. However, I do think the context isn't the same in reverse, specifically because different types of knowledge (and how gendered this knowledge is coded as) are valued differently and with great disparity.

That being said, I do think it's pretty bold and good on you for making a post about simmering down and enjoying the medium, and, most importantly, fighting memetic mentality, of which gets spread absurdly quick in fandom. Ideas are contagious and when someone puts a confirmation bias in your head, you WILL choose to interpret a scene poorly if you've already got something against the writer/character/etc.

More positivity isn't a bad thing. It's good that some people are enjoying the storyline, and this particular story was loads better than previous ones featuring Carlie+Peter interaction.

I didn't feel slighted on MJ's behalf, I just feel that it was presenting a false equivalence when the context by cultural standards still kind rubs me the wrong way.

[cuntfucius]

Oh, and I think this isn't really as polarizing as people are making it out to be. There pretty much IS a very negative game of fandom telephone that goes on with comics like this.

[tifaeria]

Wow, words cannot describe how much I love this post and you for making it. Thank you!!! *hug*

Eh

[big_daddy_d]

It doesn't change my view. When originally posted I actually didn't think much of the panels. If anything I have thought in my head and that's this.

Considering all the years the two of them have been together, shouldn't MJ have...idk at least get what he was saying? Same with Pete. If they were in a relationship and it was still fresh, this scene would make more sense. If MJ naming someone in fashion only flew over Carlie's head, it'd make more sense.

Forgetting OMD/BND for a moment, if there's anything this time and a married Peter's time has, it's that he and MJ have been together for years. So by this point, as obviously MJ isn't a scientist, and Peter isn't a fashion expert, idk I would think that they'd still..get it if that makes any sense. Not saying they'd have to understand it, but considering the amount of time together I don't exactly expect a "flew over (insert name)'s head" moment here.

That's how I feel about it to be honest. I hope I made some sense because I had a hard time finding the right words.

Otherwise, my personal gripes with anything post OMD still stands and I freely admit that I don't like MJ and Pete not being together and a lot of stories could've been told with a still married Pete..so..I think the answer would've been to just..create a new continuity altogether, tell certain stories in a different continuity, something. Plus Sins Past is still in continuity...I really...hate that story for what it did to Gwen Stacy in my eyes..that seriously needs to go or needs a major retcon job. Also Doc Ock's new look needs to go too. That and I still think OMD should've been a tear jerking send off to Aunt May story.

Now if there are props I'll give, it's New Ways to Die, Grim Hunt, and Hobgoblin returning. Those seem interesting enough that I might (I said MIGHT) just buy them, although Grim Hunt had moments that I really could do without.

Yea, yea, I surprised myself by not going off into one of my usual rants.

Re: Eh

[icon_uk]

Considering all the years the two of them have been together, shouldn't MJ have...idk at least get what he was saying? Same with Pete.

Not particularly, she knows he's talking science and would recognise the words, but as she's never shown any inclication to follow Peter's science career, and he's never asked her to, why would she know a lepton from a Einstein-Rosen bridge.

Actually, given Peter's oft noted hyper-genius intellect I'm perhaps more surprised that Carlie (who I know is a CSI, but is she someone who would impress Tony Stark and Reed Richards after just one conversation?) follows him so easily.

[angelophile]

I can't personally see how posting these panels in context with commentary changes shit, to be honest.