Daredevil (2011) #11

[iamrman]

Daredevil has words for Lady Punisher.

Comments

[blueprintstyles]

I genuinely love when other characters point out how poisonous a role model Frank Castle is, it feels like so many writers feel that way but The Punisher continues to be framed as a hero. Jason Aaron's run was a perfect way to send the character off, and now we get a NEW punisher, and this one's basically an ex-cop which is a whole other bag of worms.

[windleopard2]

As long as he goes after villains and only villains, the Punisher will be seen as a hero by default. Even his debut story established that he only went after Spider-Man because he was tricked into thinking he killed Gwen Stacy and when he realized Spider-Man was innocent, he backed off. Compare this to Jason Todd in the 2000s who was much more malicious and willing to put innocent civilians in harm's way.

[sabertoothlotus]

now we get a NEW punisher, and this one's basically an ex-cop which is a whole other bag of worms.

So was Jake Gallows, Punisher 2099. That didn't go great, either. But don't worry, we all know Frank will be back. This isn't the first time he's been dead, after all.

[cainofdreaming]

I mean, 2099 cops were unashamedly the iron fist of the corporations so the whole setting was kinda up front about what to expect.

[cainofdreaming]

Also, both Frank and Matt are 'down under'. Coincidink? I dink nod.

[windleopard2]

Huh?

[cainofdreaming]

Both are in hell. Well, I'm assuming that's where Frank ended up too.

[nyadnar17]

Oh man I didn't even notice that!

That could be great the last time they were in "jail" together was one of my favorite stories of all time.

[nyadnar17]

"characters point out how poisonous a role model Frank Castle is"

I gonna be real. I have less and less patience with it as time goes on. I have read Punisher stories since I was a child reading my dad's old comic collection. Even back at the height of "tough on crime America is going to hell in a handbasket 80s" Castle was always presented as either completely broken, a weirdo freak, a serial killer, or all of the above.

In order to think Castle is a role model or enviable you either have to only be consuming Punisher solely through pop culture or just full on authquad. Neither person is reachable through comics like this and I am getting tired of wasting page time trying.

[windleopard2]

What does authquad mean?

[zylly]

I’ve often thought the best way to handle the Punisher is to stop giving him his own book. No more making him the title character. It gives him too much legitimacy. He just shows up in other people’s books like Pete and Matt’s, where you can unequivocally frame him as being in the wrong.

[zachbeacon]

Daredevil's hero speech.

Spider-Man being the only person with the courtesy to call Lady Punisher by her married name.

This is such a good arc.

[super_fly]

I'd forgotten about this character, so I was picturing the Mangaverse Lady Punisher

[cainofdreaming]

People should just carry a miniature, nerf, Cap's shield for these occasions and slap the person making the argument in the face with it.

[full_metal_ox]

Also a perilously tempting idea in real life.

[huntleyhaverstock]

After they announced the new Punisher, I thought:

Why not THE PUNISHERS?

A network of people, many if not all of them from the kind of groups who tend to know how it feels to have a boot on your neck. All of whom have lost someone they love. Working together, quiet, unshowy, to go after the kind of powerful, untouchable people who do harm and never face consequences. They don't kill. Ever. They don't even do any lasting physical harm. They just leave their targets wishing they were dead.

That's the kind of revenge fantasy we need in this day and age. Not Frank Castle and his warmed-over DEATH WISH rehash, and definitely not whatever that new guy's supposed to be.

[windleopard2]

Sounds like the superhero equivalent of Leverage.

I recall a thread where I suggested a similar idea featuring Monica Rambeau, Ben Reilly and Hobie Brown among others.

[zachbeacon]

I always thought Cardiac would be a solid replacement for the Punisher.

Probably not going to stick to a "no killing" rule, though.

[windleopard2]

Cardiac strikes me as one of those "too hot to handle" characters that will always have sporadic appearances, a black man who goes after corporations whose actions aren't illegal but very much unethical. If Marvel can't use Frank without having to address his real world impact, I can't imagine how they will (mis)handle Cardiac

[zachbeacon]

Point taken. I find Elias killing people who ruin lives over greed to be a more palatable power fantasy than Frank …

…actually the Punisher would need a consistent characterization/goal/motive for me to make a point here.

But I don’t think the either is okay and it was real weird during Slott’s run when the “ghost” of Peter “Nobody Dies” Parker was talking about Cardiac like Otto should treat him with kid gloves. Yeah, he doesn’t kill indiscriminately like Carnage but he still racks up a large body count.

Though I think (a) killing people and (b) not actually being in the right are requirements for a Punisher-type so I still think Elias is a solid Frank replacement and - as much fun as "Leverage but Marvel" would be - I don't think it works as a Punisher series.

Actually I think I'd rather see a Leverage-style comic than Punisher. Just a bunch of minor heroes waking up in the morning and deciding to ruin Justin Hammer's day.

(I think Hammer might be dead but that's never stopped him before and there are plenty of that type of villain who could stand in for him)

Edit: Also, given how tone deaf the refugee stories in Secret Invasion and Falcon & the Winter Soldier were despite the number of people that would need to sign off on a TV show...I think maybe you're giving Disney too much credit in terms of quality control on sensitive issues.

[windleopard2]

Also, given how tone deaf the refugee stories in Secret Invasion and Falcon & the Winter Soldier were despite the number of people that would need to sign off on a TV show...I think maybe you're giving Disney too much credit in terms of quality control on sensitive issues.

If it means anything, they did change the subtitle of the upcoming Captain America movie when it was pointed out it invoked an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

[huntleyhaverstock]

I mean, I'd read the hell out of "Leverage, but superheroes." That show was really ahead of the curve.

(With the sad caveat that many of its cast and leadership were apparently either perpetrating sexual harassment/assault or enabling it.)

[windleopard2]

I know of Timothy Hutton's rape allegations. I haven't heard of anyone else involved with the show having such allegations against them until now.