Red Skull: Incarnate issue covers

[espanolbot]

On the heels of the acclaimed Holocaust comic Mageneto: Testament, Greg Pak and Mirko Colak are going to be doing a mini-series that goes on the opposite side of the coin, and revealling the origins of Marvel's least loveable supervillain: the Red Skull.

All well and good, but there has been some contraversy over the covers that they decided to use, designed by David Aja, have been based on actual Nazi propaganda.

For Example,




More here,
http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/116/1164162p1.html

The point I'm trying to make here is this: do the covers show the kind of imagery that inspired Johann Schmitt into becoming a guy who machinguns children and gleefully tell Magneto to his face about how he was buddies with Hitler, to give an impression of what kind of person pre-Reed Skull Johann was as well as a historical context for others who joined the Nazis... OR is it all kind of tasteless and maybe not well thought out on the part of the Marvel editorial?

I suppose that the Red Skull's origin could use some revision, in a post-Downfall media world the depiction of Nazis with some human qualities (making them all the more scary and repulsive) could argueably make the Red Skull a more three-dimensional character. After all, his currently origin has him being a small-time thief and murderer who suddenly is given a lot of power via a chance encounter with Hitler whilst working as a bellhop, where Adolf gave Johann a high ranking position in his government because while berating a member of his staff, he said that he could make a random bellhop a better Nazi than him.

The Red Skull being sometime other than an Indiana Jones-ish comically evil Nazi could go a long way to making him scarier, I guess, but there's the uncomfortable point that people might get a wee bit carried away with the whole "sympathetic villain" thing. I like that TV Tropes calls it 'Draco in Leather Pants' syndrome.

Anyways, here's a page from the Captain America/Batman crossover,

Comments

[icon_uk]

I dunno... The thing I recall from the Red Skull origin as it's been presented in the past is not so much that the Red Skull is something he was "doomed to become", as something he revelled in becoming.

What motivated Hitler to pick him for the experiment of making him the ultimate Nazi was the fact that he saw this kid had hate and anger seething within him on a scale that even he could "respect", but it went beyond that, with Schmidt using all he'd learned to assassinate those in his way to a position where he was Hitler's right hand man, and the only reason Hitler didn't have him killed as a precautionary measure was that he dare not.

Humanising him, even in his origins, wouldn't add enough to make it worth the changing IMHO, and adding a sympathetic element to an unrepentant "super-Nazi" like the Skull wouldn't sit right with me.

[valtyr]

Humanising him, even in his origins, wouldn't add enough to make it worth the changing IMHO, and adding a sympathetic element to an unrepentant "super-Nazi" like the Skull wouldn't sit right with me.

But Red Skull, like Hitler and Mengele, is human. He's the dark counterpart to Captain America - the depths of human depravity. Denying the humanity of other people is, frankly, how they got started. (Er, not that you're on your way to becoming a super-Nazi.)

For what it's worth, Pak says "So it was a huge challenge, particularly with this story because we're telling the story of an orphan who ends up becoming the most terrifying Nazi of his day. That is a massive challenge, because if you're going to tell that kind of story, there's a fine line between telling somebody's story and glorifying somebody's story."

After his Testament I'm definitely willing to give the series a try.

The covers - IDK.They're certainly disturbing; but they're damn good. And I don't think they're ill thought out. The covers are a reflection of what you're going to find inside the book, most likely; a very realistic look at Nazi Germany and how it created monsters.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, up to a point. I think my concern is that, being fictional, Red Skull has never had the humanity that real life monsters like Hitler and Mengele had, certainly as regards to his origin, he's a very thin character in that respect, and that works for him because he's a monster.

As you say, Pak appears to be aware of this and based on Testament I'll give it a fair chance.

[arilou_skiff]

The paralells with Cap are interesting I think, in that both are "useless" (Steve a frail young poor man and Johann an orphaned bellhop) who are given purpose, meaning and a chance to become something "more" through their respective leaders.

[blackruzsa]

"You're a nazi?"
Tickle me surprised Joker feels that way.

[speedingtortoise]

I feel like the current Joker wouldn't care too much

Maybe the old Joker who flew around in helicoptors that looked like his face and who did other wacky things would object though?

[baihu]

Hey, it's one thing to be a psychopath; the thing is the Joker is an indiscriminate psychopath - I would honestly think targeting one particular race for genocide WOULD be against his nature, if only because he's equal opportunity and wouldn't use race or religion or any other cultural identifiers to mark out his victims.

[skyblade]

Well, yes, he probably finds racism to be pointless, but not because if offends his value system, but because he has no value system. If he had objection to Nazism, it would be at how awfully stifling it is. All that organization, and paperwork and machinery and haughtiness.

But I can imagine him watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (His favorite show!) and thinking it might be fun to dress up like a Nazi and commit Nazi-themed crimes with very horrible holocaust-based punchlines. Or he might foster a partnership with a Nazi, because every wacky guy needs a straight man.

The Joker is like a /b/tard reaching its horrible, logical conclusion. He operates under the philosophy anything, anything is fair game.

[darkblade]

This, anything the Joker does must be justifiable with a punchline of some kind. It doesn't have to be in good taste or even all that funny to anyone but himself but there has to be some kind of humour present.

[starwolf_oakley]

Indeed. Out of all the things that will annoy the Joker (thus giving him even more rage than usual) is either being the punchline himself or just not getting the joke.

I hope to someday get a convention sketch of the Joker reading a popular/controversial book and saying "I don't get it." Or "That stuff's only funny if the punchline is 'The Aristocrats.'"

[thehefner]

Methinks that this would be an ideal time to post the "final" confrontation between Cap and Skull from J.M. DeMatteis' little-remembered Captain America run. That gives some neat insight into the Skull's history (I have to wonder how much DeMatteis originated, and how much was canon before him) and his motivations, as well as the slashtacularness of his feelings towards Steve and what Captain America truly means to him.

[starwolf_oakley]

IIRC, DeMatteis took some of it from the Lee/Kirby "Origin of the Red Skull" story in TALES OF SUSPENSE.

[lpetrazickis]

"Nazi" is a political affiliation. "American" is a citizenship. Joker's statement is a bit dumb (and is obviously meant to make American readers feel good about themselves for no reason).

[golden_orange]

IIRC, that particular crossover was done as a deliberate pastiche of the old uber-patriotic 1940s comics (which were all about Americans feeling good about themselves) -- it's intended to be tongue-in-cheek. Since, let's face it, aligning yourself with the Joker isn't exactly the stuff patriots dream of.

[baihu]

I can't tell if they're using it AS a political affiliation OR basically a derogatory term (in the sense, calling someone evil). I'm going to assume Joker is saying 'American' because he can't really say he's not 'evil' or a 'lunatic' or 'psychopathic'. It'll be sort of the pot calling the kettle black. So I guess they went with the vaguely nationalistic/political tone, even if it doesn't really fit, or else the Joker wouldn't be able to make any kind of point.

[icon_uk]

Even allowing for the Joker not being politically aware (You think he votes? :) ) "Nazi" was used as shorthand in such stories.. Home grown sympathisers would be "Fifth Columnists"

[arilou_skiff]

Joker votes for a third party candidate because it's funny.

Better COme Back Lines

[silverzeo]

I wonder what other lines Joker would have said, like:
"Those who hate all 3 Howards and Fine are my enemies!"
or,
"There nothing funny about what you clowns do!"

[proteus_lives]

Nice covers, the history major approves.

And the Joker/Red Skull scene is such a rip-off of the Rocketeer.

[autumn_lily]

And the Joker/Red Skull scene is such a rip-off of the Rocketeer.


You weren't the only one.

[skyblade]

And it was generally more effective (even touching) in the Rocketeer. Here it's just...stupid.

[akodo_rokku]

There's controversy.

Over basing covers for a comic about a *nazi supervillain* on nazi propaganda posters.

Really?

Really?

[heckfire]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking, too. I chalk this one up to "looking for things to get upset about."

[espanolbot]

*sigh* Yeah, I know right?

The thing is though, althought there is a fair chunk of the supervillainous population over at Marvel that owe a debt either to the Nazis or to the Axis Powers in some way or another (Hydra, AIM and the Hand all have their roots in an organisation founded by escaped Nazi, Italian Fascist and Imperial Japanese war criminals), they aren't really shown to be straight Nazis or whatever anymore.

For example, the Red Skull remains unapologetic about his association with Hitler, but recently he'd gone from being a Nazi and hating only a select group of people, to adopting a new philosophy where he hated and wanted to kill EVERYONE.

He still uses the imagery and uniforms to an extent, but he isn't strictly speaking a Nazi at this point, though in the underrated Mark Millar Wolverine-mini the Nazi stuff is brought all the way back to the forefront, though that may at least partially due to the Skull feeling all giddy about decorating Washington DC and the rest of the East Coast with swastikas and statues of Hitler, while being surrounded by blond guys with Germanic names.

It seems that at least some comicbook writers, at least until recently, attempted to distance the characters from the very real atrocities carried out by the real Nazis by either reforming, saying that Hitler "didn't go far enough!" or coming to the conclusion that Nazism on a whole was kind of stupid.

Wonder Woman villainess Baroness von Gunther, for example, was both a ruthless Nazi spy and a mad scientist, but in order for her to fully reform they said that she was forced to do it because the Nazis had her daughter prisoner somewhere. Once Diana saved her kid, the pair moved to Paradise Island and all was forgiven for the most part.

The Red Skull comes under the second category, graduating from the Nazi political alignment to "killmurderkillhatedeathkillkillkill" mode and wanting to take over the world purely to mess with people.

And the last one has been adopted by a far number of villains in the past. Including the current Zemo, who shrugged off his father's indoctrination to become his own person, and the trio of mad scientists that were allied with Rasputin in the Hellboy comics (Kroenen, Ilsa and the other one) who only stayed with the Nazis for funding and really thought that Hitler was a moron.

[valtyr]

There's controversy.

Over basing covers for a comic about a *nazi supervillain* on nazi propaganda posters.

Really?

C'mon, if this were Mark Millar writing a story about SuperMengele fighting Dr Bong I know I'd be pretty unimpressed with them riffing off actual Nazi propaganda. But this is pretty obviously aiming to be a serious and respectful treatment, so.

[thetrue_monster.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who think that what makes The Red Skull such a great villain is that he, unlike many other villains, is fully aware of the fact that he's a monster and totally enjoys being one. He doesn't need to justify his actions because he seens himself as depravity incarnate and is proud of it.

What wrong with having a bad guy who likes doing evil simply for the sake of it? Villains who are pure evil can be just as compelling as those that have sympatic reasons for being bad guys.

[valtyr]

IDK, the Red Skull has not been shown in many comics to do worse than some of the things that were really done by the Nazis, and all those people were human and lots of them were... perfectly normal, to start with. Considering how people go from normal kids, normal young adults, even normal middle-aged adults to... well, monsters... is worthwhile, I think. To look at the forces that shaped the Red Skull is not the same as him justifying his actions.

(Also, I think he does justify his actions - the Nazi philosophy didn't just go 'kill the Jews', there was a whole build-up of momentum and justification over years.)

[starwolf_oakley]

Out of the major Marvel villains, the Red Skull is really the only one who sees himself as evil. Most of the others justify themselves as doing what's necessary or needed. The Kingpin prevented New York City from falling into criminal anarchy, the Mandarin wanted to kick the communists out of China, etc.

[espanolbot]

That's the thing though, the Nazis didn't think that they were evil either. They thought that they were making their country strong again after the Treaty of Versailles debacle after the First World War, getting back at the people they thought had caused WW1/their defeat in the War/the economic collapse that hit Germany spectacularly badly due to the constraints put on them by said Treaty, as well as defending Germany/Europe from the scourge of Communism (towards the end of WW2, when it became apparent that Germany was loosing, some of the higher-ups in Hitler's government stupidly thought that the Allies would keep the Nazis around to act as a buffer against the Soviets).

The fact that they were ordinary dudes that thought that what they were doing was for the best, or just a job, or they were only just carrying out orders, is what makes what they did so terrible and makes Nazis so scary.

To have this one dude going around and acting like Xykon from Order of the Stick (a character that acknowledges that he's evil and enjoys debasing himself through monsterous acts as he's both insane and that's the only pleasure he can get now as an animated skeleton), and for the rest of the government to leave him in power is kind of weird, even for a comicbook.

Occupying France and the rest of mainland Europe is one thing, they could probably feel pleased about that, revenge for loosing WW1 and all. It'd be harder for them to keep their blinkers on regarding their actions when they have this one dude, dressed in a Halloween mask going: "Mwhahahaha! Vhat I did vaz VERY Evvvvvvil today, ja? I did burn down a church filled vit blind Jewish orphans and drove a tank through a veteran hospital to squash injured troops. BECAUSE I'M FUCKIN' EVIL!!!".

If this new series actually does give him a bit more depth beyond "he's a Nazis supervillain", then fair do to them. It'd make him scarier and less cartoonish.

[notactuallyauser]

One notable thing is they've omitted any swastikas (at least on the copies I can find) - the cover for #2 has the white disks where Swastikas would go be simply blank, and the cover for #4 has that part of the Skull's armband just out of shot. Similarly, nothing like the SS logo appears. (There's what appear to be Iron Crosses on the side of tanks on #5, but that's a bit more of a neutral symbol - still in use by the Bundeswehr)

The series looks interesting, and if anyone is the right person to do this it's the guy who wrote Magneto: Testament.

Looking at names: issue #2 says it's after Nikolaev, which may mean it's a take on a Soviet propaganda poster? My google-fu is failing me, though.

[notactuallyauser]

Found the poster #2 is based on. I'm right: it was a Soviet poster, with Stalin.

Can't quite read the tiny writing on issue #1. It says something / WEGENER ? The something is GYUK?

[misterbug]

OR is it all kind of tasteless and maybe not well thought out on the part of the Marvel editorial?

Isn't it always?

[thehood]

This time? No

Especially since it's Pak, who also did Magneto: Testament.

[thehood]

Considering how well done Pak's Magneto: Testament was and seeing as how Pak did his research on both books.

I don't think you should worry, especially after reading issue #1.

The covers are disturbing, yes. But it's the origin of the most evil villain in the Marvel universe, so kinda has to be.