Captain America vs. 1990s morality

[starwolf_oakley]

Mark Gruenwald was an underrated Captain America writer. He did a quick look at Cap's ways compared to the more popular heroes of the early 1990s in CAPTAIN AMERICA #401. Cap was sad over some of the Avengers executing the Supreme Intelligence at the end of Operation: Galactic Storm.



When I posted this two years ago, a debate about WWII violence vs. Crime violence/hypocrisy debate started. Was 1990 society really more violent than what Cap had known in Great Depression and World War II?

Comments

[biod]

Damn it Cap, we've been over this!
"You move".

[turtlefu]

What the hell is he even talking about?
Cap was a soldier, who was created to assassinate somebody. He has probably KILLED more people than the Punisher!

[sherkahn]

As a soldier during wartime in combat.

Not some thugs from the neighborhood down the street.

In the 90's (early) it wasn't some unspoken taboo, but a loud statement coming up from the urban areas as a sign of "street cred".

[arilou_skiff]

And there's a difference?

If anything I'd argue there'd be more justification in killing thugs.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

How, exactly?

Cap's a soldier, charged with fighting a war by his country. The battles he fights are meant to save hundreds against overwhelming armies and firepower.

Punisher's a sociopath who slaughters drug dealers because some other criminals accidently killed his. He's about satisfying his blood lust, not protecting his nation.

[icon_uk]

Cap had a mandate and a mission from his Government granted during a time of actual warfare, and modified to allow him to serve as an Avenger in the present day, but retaining his links, and responsibilities to, the Government. He is not an independent agent at the most basic level, though he is granted pretty much absolute latitude only because of his track record.

The Punisher is a self-appointed killer, with no oversight, no regulation, absolutely NO due process, and only a burning sense of his OWN innate rightness, which is hardly reassuring given his psychological issues.

[aaron_bourque]

Yeah, that's why America suspended Posse Comitatus during the 90s, and we have no gang violence anymore oh wait.

[cleome45]

You only have to read about the history of race relations in the U.S. to know that longings for a return to "morality" as practiced in the 1930s are --to put it mildly-- utterly bogus.

I realize that Captain America embodies an idealized America, not the real one, but c'mon!

[aaron_bourque]

Enh, he grew up in the 1920s, aka "the roaring 20s," which was a fairly progressive time in American history. Arguably more progressive than now, at least unofficially.

Old Soldiers Never Give Up!!!

[chocochuy]

Maybe Cap's trying to imply the idea that the world has become into a dark place where ultra-violent anti-heroes reign free. Remember Cap was created as a symbol of hope during World War II and that all the killing he did was not because he had some blood-lust but because there was a war that would shape the future of the world. Punisher seems to be more guided by vengeance instead of a more authentic wish of making a better world. Cap lost the world he knew but he hasn't lost hope of making his future into a better time for everybody. Punisher will always see the murderers of his family on all the criminals he faces.

Cap is an example of True Strength.

Re: Old Soldiers Never Give Up!!!

[starwolf_oakley]

Punisher seems to be more guided by vengeance instead of a more authentic wish of making a better world.

How about Wolverine and Cable? Both of them want to make a better world, and were willing to use their claws and bright shiny guns to do it.

Re: Old Soldiers Never Give Up!!!

[chocochuy]

Yeah, that's why I avoided to mention them on the same league as Punisher even though they are also violent people.

By the way, How come Cable is a powerful Telepath/Telekinetic Mutant yet he relies a lot on guns? Cable sure lacks some confidence on his natural powers.

[nemryn]

Not really, imo. The American Great Depression overlaps a bit with Prohibition, Al Capone, etc, and I'd say large-scale, organized crime like that is a bigger example of 'lax moral codes' than loudmouth punk thugs.

[chocochuy]

Was 1990 society really more violent than what Cap had known in Great Depression and World War II?

Well, one thing is for sure, there were not many Cyber-Demons from Space and Psychotic Mutants in the Great Depression and World War II.

[flidgetjerome]

Mark Gruenwald was an underrated Captain America writer.

Really? Because I've never seen Mark Gruenwald discussed in relation to Cap as having anything less than "My Real Daddy" status, it's just that recently he's had to share custody with Brubaker.

[starwolf_oakley]

Well, to me Mark Gruenwald is underrated.

[chocochuy]

Please elaborate. Good discussions are always good for one's health.

One of mine first Captain America books was done by Mark Gruenwald (I think it was the one where Captain America and John Walker duke it out in front of the Red Skull) and I have always had the idea that Gruenwald was one of the best writers of them all. I do miss him.

[janegray]

Was 1990 society really more violent than what Cap had known in Great Depression and World War II?

No.

[red_menace]

The world has never been less violent. Now we just see more of it.

[chocochuy]

Here's what I think about this situation :

Cap knows that the Great Depression and World War II weren't the golden days of glory like many of his peers tend to believe. He knows those were days filled with violence and fear yet he wasn't going to be consumed by those elements. He was going to become a beacon of hope to all the oppressed people regardless of their nationalities. Now that he lives on Modern times, Cap would be amazed at how many of his fellow comrades at super-heroism have decided to become part of the darkness instead of stopping it. It's not an aspect of him loving his own era but an aspect of him feeling depressed at how the modern times never learned a lesson from the sins of the past.

[tsunamiwombat]

This. Captain America isn't depressed because the world is a bad place, he knows it's a bad place he lived through WW2. Cap is depressed because his peers, the hero's of this age which is not his, have become a PART of that darkness rather than standing as an example of something better. Captain America has the problem of being a Paladin in a bleak setting.

[detective_deathman08]

That has always been caps central flaw(every good charachter needs a short comings) he still has trouble finding his place in the world. Every time he thinks he has the world licked the script is flipped on him. Every decade brought something new.

[starwolf_oakley]

In CIVIL WAR: FRONTLINE #9, Sally Floyd (of all people) pointed out that most of the German forces the allies fought weren't Nazis obsessed with Aryan supremacy and conquering the world, they were Wehrmacht. "Regular army guys who fought an' died for their country. In other words, patriots fighting for the wrong cause."

[valtyr]

Yeah, but even if that's the case (and many soldiers had been in the Hitler Youth and solidly indoctrinated, with many officers being committed to the Nazi idealogy) a) they still needed to be fought, b) Cap spent quite a lot of his time fighting, very specifically, Nazis and the super-evil.

[r0b666]

It's been bothering me for awhile now how inconsistent Marvel is on Cap's no killing stance. He's a soldier so Nazis in War Time are OK (few would argue this) but he doesn't believe in killing super villains or drug dealers

but...

Registered Heroes during Civil War are OK - It was implied he'd go there during this.

Then again that was Millar's awful writing so it's not surprising.