Good writer-artist, bad writer-artist

[superboyprime]

Let's take a look at two creators' diametrically opposed reactions to the Miles Morales Spider-Man news...

First up, Ty Templeton posted this strip on his blog at tytempletonart.wordpress.com:



Meanwhile, at some other corner of the world wide web, on his forum at byrnerobotics.com, John Byrne shares his own thoughts:

More creative bankruptcy. Remember the Black Panther? Remember Luke Cage? Somewhere along the line -- and, sadly, it's not recent -- Black characters at Marvel suddenly were only allowed if they adopted the names of existing characters. Iron Man. Captain Marvel. Giant-Man (who'd begun with the staggeringly original name "Black Goliath"). Nick Fury. Now, a Black Spider-Man. I'll admit to having created only a handful of Black characters, but at least NONE of them were forced to follow in some White guy's footsteps. Aren't Black audiences weary yet of this modern-day Minstrel Show?

Maye no such black characters, but has Byrne forgotten his half-Vietnamese Superman from Superman/Batman: Generations?



(Above image taken from Comicvine)

Edited to add: Now Byrne's started on the Perry White casting too.

We have SEEN Perry White. We have SEEN Nick Fury. Just as we have SEEN James West. Called it "colorblind casting", call it "race swapping", what it really is, is blackface. And some day we are going to look back on this and find it every bit as embarrasing.

Comments

[cyberghostface]

I don't get Byrne's complaint. Realistically speaking, a black Spider-Man will realistically reach a wider audience and get more exposure than a newly introduced superhero with no connections. This isn't a case of blacks being forced to follow white people's footsteps, it's a case of brand names and recognition. By making him Spider-Man, Marvel has given him a much bigger chance at success than if he was someone else. This is a good thing.

[stolisomancer]

Frankly, I'm inclined to take Bendis at his word when he says it's a Donald Glover shout-out. Hopefully that dude gets his chance to put on a mask someday.

[drmcninja]

Neither do I. To me, that does seem to go in a weird way. I think you nailed my dispute on the head, but his logic is just twisted. Is he saying it would be better to have no black characters than ones that take p the mantle of a white one? And does he realize that several of those characters have become (arguably) more popular than the originals?

[tammy_moore]

Plus, even in Ultimate, the original Parker is unlikely to stay dead all that long. So this character will - hopefully - get a boost of brand name recognition that will allow him to head off to his new identity.

(Note, I don't mind the new Superman. Narratively, him taking on the mask when everyone knows who Spidey was could be interesting. However, as Wonderella said. Superhero Dead.)

[icon_uk]

I don't get Byrne's complaint.

That's certainly not an uncommon thing, nor something I even feel particularly badly about.

[q99]

Hm, on the Byrne comment, while I *like* Black Spider-man and approve of this changeover, he does raise a good point that it'd be good if there were more original IDed black heroes too.

[drmcninja]

Agreed, but I think its odd to go from that and basically say that he'd prefer no black superheroes to ones following white heroes. At least that is what I think he is saying.

[stolisomancer]

It seems like Marvel's approach recently has been to try to spread out the newer heroes a bit - Avengers Academy's a good example - while raising the profile of the black characters they've already got. I mean, I'm not sure it's cricket to complain about a lack of new black characters when this has got to be the highest profile Misty Knight's ever had, Luke's leading two separate teams, and Rhodey's got his own book again.

[sigmund_droid]

Someone name, from the last decade, a successful solo character of a new ID from either marvel or DC of any ethnicity

[cyberghostface]

[silverzeo]

AWESOME! I uploaded that picture of Knightwing on COmicVine. I'm helpful! I also have a bowl. Hurray for me!

And are people really conplaining about this? I mean, The DC Reboot is taking up more info on this. Besides, if Spidey's Marriage get retcon and Steve is able to come back, whose to say Spidey won't come back via spider-swarm?

[drmcninja]

The thing is that this is in the Ultimate MU. They've actually been really good in the UMU about popular characters staying dead. I actually don't think that a single character has come back from the dead, and the death count is surprisingly high.

[stolisomancer]

I'd take John Byrne's complaints about creative bankruptcy more seriously if he wasn't A) the comic-book equivalent of Abe Simpson yelling at clouds and B) currently making his money by writing a new volume of a comic book he created twenty years ago. He wants to be relevant again so badly it radiates from his forums in waves.

[darrylayo]

To be fair...

Next Men is HIS comic. He can write/draw as many volumes of it as he pleases. There's nothing creatively bankrupt about continuing your own story.

[thandrak]

Spidey, at heart, is the story of an outsider. In the 60s, it was the science geek who couldn't fit in. Despite the world kicking him in the crotch at every chance, despite the authorities being against him at every step, the police, the news, the school... he did the right thing.

Today? Half black, half hispanic? Yeah. That works.
This isn't a retelling of the old story, this is a recasting of the concept for the modern day.

It can have a message for the present that has meaning.

[drmcninja]

That is a perspective I had not considered, but is really very good. I would have loved to see them go all the way and go muslim, but if this is people's reaction to black/mexican, imagine the firestorm for that.

[silicondream]

So John Byrne was cool with performing the most drastic revision of Superman's backstory which has ever been done. He was cool with bringing the Kents back to life and erasing Supergirl from existence. But he draws the line at turning Perry White into a black guy.

[mrstatham]

Yeah, well.. there's that old chestnut that Byrne clearly believes in, that being 'do as I say, not as I do'.

He's also probably lashing out at the fact that he is just that inconsequential in the industry, now.

[domino_blue]

You know something I noticing? Nobody in this mention Miles by name. If you did not know about this you would think Marvel is changing Peter's race. The fact is Spider-man is the worst character you could do this for because Peter is like it or not what Makes Spider-man, when people think of Spider-man they will see him not Miles. That's the sad part of this, Miles will looked upon not on his own character but Not-Peter Parker or worst a news story that went know where. Yeah I would be okay with a Black Spider-man, but what would I be okay with a Spider-man(Not counting future incarnations) who's not Peter Parker? Yeah I want more diversity but I would love to keep the characters I've grown to love as well. SIgh sometimes you can never win. I don't want to hate on Miles but I still love Peter and wish he would come back.

[northstarfan]

Color me unsurprised. For all that I have a very large soft spot for Byrne, his picture is in the dictionary under "curmudgeon". To steal a line, he hasn't approved of anything that's happened since nineteen hundred and fifty-six. Miles could be the best, most successful thing Marvel winds up doing this decade, and the man would have to find a way to disapprove on principle.

[tsunamiwombat]

Here's how I feel about it.

I LOVE that there's a Black Spiderman. I love that theres a 'minority' (by which we mean non-WASP, though technically african americans and latino's are the statistical majority these days not that they get the representation you think they would because of this) superhero.

What I dislike is that this is just a publicity stunt by Marvel. Killing Peter and replacing him with a Black Kid is just a way to 'shake up the universe' and can be construed as a lowblow at DC during a time when they're getting absolutly SHELACKED over diversity. It's a publicity stunt.

And thats a shame because i'm sure Miles will be a well written and interesting kid. But I question if Marvel, DC, or anyone else in the industry really has the conviction and courage to keep with a worthwhile character against fan backlash- they certainly didn't for the Green Lantern.

Fans will get upset over ANYTHING. You kill what you love.

So, to sum up:

Miles is Great

I know a meritless attention grab when I see one Marvel

Fans will destroy this.

[stubbleupdate]

I know a meritless attention grab when I see one Marvel

What makes you say that this has no merit?

And I was under the impression that there is no "majority" ethnic group in the USA just now (assuming that that's where you're talking about), just a series of minorities of different sizes.

[eyz]

Man... I always love chekckin' out Ty's blog :P
The guy cracks me up with his stabs at comics fandom^^
Plus I love these little comic strips!

[icon_uk]

I didn;t even know he had one, but I do now! :)

[alexanderlucard]

I guess this situation is very similar to something that happened in the early 1990s and just a few years ago in the video game industry. There's a game called Persona, which is part of the megaten franchise. Megaten and Pokemon are the two biggest video game franchises in japan in terms of spin offs and $ brought in (Yes, more than Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. In the states, it's different.)

When Atlus USA brought Persona to the US they changed one of the Asian characters (which they all were) to an African American and gave him the new name of Mark. Completely new art and everything for the guy - not a blackface palette swap. Their reasoning? There weren't ANY black protagonists in RPGs at that point (Barrett and FFVII would come out around the same time, but he was a walking blaxplotation stereotype). Audiences were divided. Some wanted their Persona "pure" and exactly like it was in Japan...but with English dialogue so they could play it. Others loved making Mark black for the reasons Atlus stated they did it. Yet others were offended that the only way they had a black protagonist in an RPG was to edit another character and they felt it was lip service to black gamers. I think this latter view is what Byrne is saying. He wants new original Black characters that have their own lineage and legacy, not ones that are "riding the coattales" or the name of a White character.

That being said, when they rereleased persona for the PSP a few years ago, people were pissed Mark was Asian again. So maybe it's just people like to get pissy when something they know and have grown to love has changed. People fear change.

Of course, MY favorite Spider-Man of all time is Miguel O'Hara followed by Ben Reilly, so obviously Miles doesn't phase me a bit. :-P

[an_idol_mind]

I didn't even know this was a controversy. It's not even like this is the mainstream Marvel Universe here. Moreover, it's incredibly sad to see that many people's sole complaint about the new Ultimate Spidey is the color of his skin.

As for John Byrne being an ass, that's about par for the course. The guy screamed bloody murder when Michael Clarke Duncan was chosen to play the Kingpin on screen, but he hasn't batted an eye when some white guy got cast to play Bane. So quite frankly, screw Byrne and his hypocritical whining.

[jlbarnett]

the controversy is because when people see a new character replace a deceased character they assume that the previous character is deceased because they wanted to put in the new character.

So Peter Parker was killed so Miles Morales could exist in their minds.

[https://profiles.google.com/Luis.eScO.2/posts?hl=en&tab=wh]

Both Ty & Byrne made good points about it. Its been done a dozen times before and probably with less class and it would be great if these new minority character were more original but hey its a move good in a good direction. Personally I don't care and I'll wait to see if the stories are good but I do believe that Bendis when he says he did it as a shout out to Donald Glover. Of course I'm sure some in Marvel/Disney were giddy with having minority becoming the new Spidy for the possible controversy/attention it would get.

Also the demograpics of the USA from the CIA:
white 79.96%
black 12.85%
Asian 4.43%
Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%
native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%,
two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean persons of Spanish/Hispanic/Latino origin including those of Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republic, Spanish, and Central or South American origin living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.);
about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic

This might not be a politically correct thing to say but people try to demand minority characters when statistically its not even possible at least when it comes to Americans especially when most of these characters were created when America was even more white.

[cainofdreaming]

Curious. Why would CIA be the organization to make demographics about US citizens? Isn't its job to spy on the other people?

As a sidenote. I believe the Ty-rabbit is my favourite artist/writer self-depiction.

[kenn_el]

Spider-Man is in a costume that shows not one inch of skin. Pretty 'ballsy' of Marvel to replace him with a more ethnically desirable character. Doesn't mess with their trademark/brand.

[milleniumrex]

They totally changed the costume for Miles, though. So it'll be very easy to distinguish which Spider-man is Peter and which is Miles.

Of course, Miles is also only in an alternate universe, which makes this about as ballsy as Miguel O'Hara being the Spider-man of 2099.

[halloweenjack]

Ty Templeton's Buntoons are some of my favorite (usually-)comics-commentary webcomics.

John Byrne was replaced in the late nineteen-eighties with a Skrull.

[bruinsfan]

I'll admit, I find Byrne objecting to a new take on a classic 60s character not thought up by himself about as surprising as the news that the sun will rise tomorrow.

[jlroberson]

The true question is, who cares what John Byrne says?

Now there's a question.