No Huntress or Power Girl on Earth-2? WTF???!?! D:

[aeka]

Paul Levitz gave another interview for Worlds Finest on CBR today, and let me just say I think they may have given me something to actually be upset about. It's enough to say, icon says all. And yes, that is saying a bloody lot.

From the CBR interview:

Though Huntress and Power Girl are now from Earth-2, initially (at least) they are stuck on the New 52 Earth. What do you gain by having these two operating as fish out of water in New 52 Earth that you wouldn't have if the series covered stories about the pair set on Earth-2?

Ah, you'll need to read the stories for that. They had totally different identities on Earth-2 -- remember, this is a new DC Universe, so it's a new Earth-2. There wasn't a Huntress or Power Girl on this Earth-2, so it would have been a very different series! (aeka: WTF???!?! D:)

Touching on the characters, how is this Helena Wayne different from the one you've written before?

[This Helena] had a very different life than the previous Helena on Earth-2 -- some of which will be revealed in the first story, more of which will be revealed over time. She's been hardened more, and as you can see in the miniseries, has more willingness to go to the limits for her goals.*

Along those same lines, how different is this new Power Girl from the pre-relaunch version? Will this Karen Star be the same one who appeared in "Mister Terrific?"

I'm newer to writing the new Power Girl, so she's still evolving, but it's definitely the Karen Starr from "Mister Terrific," and I think she's got a much clearer sense of mission than any version of Power Girl we've seen before. The events that brought her here provide compelling reasons for her future destiny.

NGL, if Huntress and Power Girl are not their initial identities and were 'Batgirl' and 'Supergirl' on Earth-2, that'll be a HUGE step backwards for both of these character since they'll be taking away huge part of who these two characters are. Independence was a huge thing for both and giving them 'Bat' and 'Super' names would not do much to establish them as independent heroines and would further put them in the shadow of their MALE predecessors.

With Kara-L, I can only see her using the Supergirl identity if she was raised by her cousin from the time arrived as an infant to the time she joined the JSA, or if she already came with the 'Super' costume like the Earth-Prime Kara-El did.

With Helena, if she's at least Catwoman II on Earth-2, I can deal. But the only way I can seriously see the whole 'Batgirl' thing working is if her dad made her take on the mantle to fight alongside him as a way to control her more violent urges* (presumably in response to Selina's death, assuming that much is still true) like Earth-Prime Bruce does with Damian. In fact, if Wayne is still Bertinelli at heart when it comes to her use of violence (as has been shown in the mini), I wouldn't put it past Bruce to let her fight alongside the JSA to tone her down like he did with Helena Bertinelli in the post-Crisis continuity when he sponsored her JLA membership. This could even explain why she's in no hurry to return to Earth-2.

Other than that, the only time Helena Wayne as Batwoman was less problematic as a concept was when she was the first to take on the Bat mantle and name on 'Reverse-Gender-Earth,' and didn't get it from a guy in a Batsuit as was done with ALL previous Batgirls:









-Le Sigh- Here's to hoping both Kara and Helena actually decide to keep the Huntress and Power Girl identities even when and if they return to Earth-2.

Comments

[shadowpsykie]

see Icon....

Twitch...

so... she a more hardened hero.....so... they are making Helena Wayne resemble Helena Bertinelli even CLOSER...?

*twitch*

I don't have too much of an issue with their Previous identities on earth 2, its probably interesting... but what PISSES me off, is that they are essentially making Helena W, closer to her Helena B personality.... essentially, eliminating BOTH characters and created a amalgamated NEW character...>!!!!!

[dorothy1901]

Batwoman: I ran some tests. We have identical D.N.A.

Ten-year-old reader: If they have identical DNA, wouldn't they both be women?

[jlbarnett]

On the original Earth-2 Helena Wayne was full grown before she became Huntress, because of her parents deaths. Maybe her parents died while she was younger here.

On the fish out of water subject, am I the only person totally sick of that concept?

[darkknightjrk]

The scans does give me an idea--what if they were the Batwoman and Superwoman of Earth 2, and now that there are...semi-similar folk in that role, they take on names that are separate?

And if that isn't the case, and they were the sidekicks before...well, I guess that just means we get to see them become the independent characters that they are.

In any case...welp, new universe(s), shouldn't be surprised that they'd play a bit with things. While from the sounds of it they aren't being too kind about the changes, I can't bring myself to be to angry about these changes--especially when we've had some fair-to-major changes with characters like the Super-Family, Barbara Gordon, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, Flash...I'm pretty much even zen-ier than before.

[aeka]

See in my case I don't find Wayne having Bertinelli's fighting style upsetting for the fact that Bertinelli was based off of Wayne anyway, and couldn't see it as a significant change for that reason. But giving Kara and Helena 'Super' and 'Bat' names on Earth-2 would be a huge step backwards in both these characters' development for the reasons I already stated. In fact, I can't tell you how BADLY I want to be proven wrong on this one. D:

[aeka]

Yeah I was expecting changes to these characters from the get-go, but I wasn't expecting *this* kind of change. As I said it's a step backwards in the concept of their characters and it significantly changes their development as female heroines.

It's bad enough most of the women in the Bat-family take on names inspired by Batman, and a huge part of what made Helena Wayne such a refreshing female character is the fact that she chose an independent name for her crime-fighting career despite her heritage. It's part of what made her unique and stand out more from characters like Batgirl and Batwoman.

Still I hope to be proven wrong about this. If they do go this route, I hope Levitz has a damn good story to go with it that actually makes sense for their characters.

[jlbarnett]

on the genderswapped Earth XY equals female, XX equals male

[darkknightjrk]

I get ya--that's part of why I suggested that it could be like we see in the scans--that there isn't a Batman or Superman to emulate from, and the two literally created those identities on their own in Earth Two.

[jlbarnett]

if there was no Batgirl or Batwoman before her why wouldn't she choose to embrace her heritage? In fact I've always felt declaring herself a hunter was a little overly aggressive for a blood relative of Batman.

[aeka]

Maybe her parents died while she was younger here.

Yeah I'm guessing that's going to be the case as well, though I somehow doubt Bruce would be killed so easily, and even less so if he's trying to avoid leaving a young orphaned daughter behind.

[aeka]

Except Levitz already confirmed that Helena is Batman and Catwoman's daughter, and Kara is still tied to the Earth-2 Superman. While it would be a neat idea, it wouldn't happen for the fact that Earth-2 already had a Batman and Superman.

[aeka]

My issue with the change (if real) isn't so much over her embracing her heritage or not, but rather on the fact that it's such a rarity for a female member of the Bat-family to take on a name that doesn't actually start with the word 'Bat.' Outside of Catwoman, pretty much every female member of the Bat-family has been a 'Batgirl' or a 'Batwoman' of sorts.

With Helena, at least in declaring herself a 'Huntress' she establishes an identity that's uniquely her own, and it actually makes sense for what she actually does. She does actively pursue and capture her prey, and she's already been established as a morally ambiguous and pretty aggressive fighter in the new DCU. As to whether or not she's actively killed a foe before is unknown, but if her blowing up ships with live crew still on board is of indication of anything, is that she probably has no qualms about killing either if she feels it's necessary. At best, it would validate her 'I wonder how many corpses I'll leave behind this trip' comment she made in Huntress #1.

[big_daddy_d]

I'm...confused.

[pyrotwilight]

Alternatively Mxy and Joker didn't put much thought into the details of their made up universes.

[aeka]

But then wouldn't that make 'male' the default sex if 'Y' is what determines the opposite sex? :/

[aeka]

About what? o.O

Well

[mambalev]

You can safely assume you aren't alone.

[big_daddy_d]

Well if they're not even from Earth-2 then...what the hell? New Earth but quickly aged? Earth-1? What?

[aeka]

Oh no, Helena Wayne and Kara Zor-L are still from Earth-2. What changed is that they were no longer Huntress and Power Girl on Earth-2 and had completely different codenames on their Earth. Levitz also stated in an earlier interview that their codenames on Earth-2 are the reason they had to change their names to "Huntress" and "Power Girl" on Earth-Prime.

At this point, I think it's a safe assumption they were Batgirl and Supergirl on Earth-2 otherwise why change their names to Huntress and Power Girl? It's honestly a change I could've done without as it makes no sense for their characters, but hopefully that makes better sense. Sorry for the confusion!

[big_daddy_d]

No problem and thanks.

[pyrotwilight]

So it's YY then i guess? and the X gene is actually a mutation/smaller version of the Y gene as a reversal to the regular dcu? *shrug* It's Mxy, we don't have to explain it.

[pyrotwilight]

Bwuh? Kinda makes the series pointless then doesn't it? Would anyone actually want to see Powergirl and Huntress to return to E-2 only for them to be Supergirl and Batgirl there if those are their identities there?

[jaybee3]

So if this is a "different" Earth-2 (which would make it the 4th version after the pre-Crisis one, the Morrison one, the post-Infinite Crisis Johns/Ordway one) are Bruce Wayne, Selina Kyle, Clark Kent and Lois Lane still alive in it?

I don't get it. This reboot was supposed to make everything easier for new readers or some such but everything is just harder. If everything is rebooted why aren't the Dibny's or Ted Kord alive (since Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis never happened). How does DC think making Bart (the future grandson of Iris and Barry who are not even married or a couple in this continuity) Kid Flash easier to understand than Wally West (the character who carried the Flash title successfully for an entire generation of readers)? Why bring back Earth-2 just to change it? Why introduce "Karen Starr" as a supporting player (not even more like a cameo player) in someone else's title after she was coming off a year where she starred in no less than three DC titles (her own, JSA and JSA: All Stars). Why wasn't Mr. Terrific in Earth-2 to begin with? Without his inspired from Terry Sloan (who doesn't exist on Earth Prime anymore and presumably neither does his great-niece Roulette) origin it doesn't make sense for the "3rd smartest man in the world" to paint his face and assume a corny catchphrase ("Fair Play") and nickname.

Does DC really think these changes made their universe "easier"?

[aeka]

Right? I Somehow doubt they'll be returning to their "original" codenames even if they do return to Earth-2 since fans of these two characters *like* them as Huntress and Power Girl. But still, making them start out as Bat and Super is just stupid and a downgrade for their characters.

[pyrotwilight]

At this point they seem to be likely to be making the two more like their related male counterparts.

Powergirl- Most likely to be the only Kryptonian survivor instead of Superman.
Huntress: Seems like she'll be like Batman, an orphan, likely from a young age instead of having grown up with both of her parents as she orignally did.

DC might even be doing this so as to say if both Superman and Batman exist on Earth 2 that Helena and Karen were both Supergirl and Batgirl but won't have become independent of their mentors until they return to E-2 having "grown up" because of being lost in the Multiverse.

[aeka]

As I said earlier, Levitz already confirmed she's the daughter of Batman and Catwoman:

You mentioned campaigning to do more with Huntress -- beyond your role in creating her, what is it about Helena that really fascinates you as a storyteller?

The combination of her strength as a character and the intriguing overlay of what it might have been like to be brought up by two people as interesting and complex as Batman and Catwoman.

On that note, he also compared Kara's characterisation to that of Superman and how she differs from Superman. So it's more than a safe assumption she's still cousin to the Earth-2 Superman; no point in making Helena Batman's daughter again if Kara is no longer related to Superman. :/

[golden_orange]

It's perhaps worth remembering that the whole point of the reboot is to pick up new readers, and a lot of these points are going to be things of concern primarily to older or more experienced readers. In one sense, it's only really 'harder' because we're intimately familiar with all of this stuff; the average new reader DC's aiming for probably isn't going to be too concerned about whether the Dibnys or Ted Kord are around, of how many different versions of Earth-2 there've been.

[kd_the_movie]

Why in the fuck would they change their names and hide their identities on New Earth if they're actively trying to get home? I mean shit you'd figure that the fact that you don't exist on New Earth or someone else has always gone by your codename would actively get Superheroes (particularly BATMAN AND SUPERMAN) on your radar and Idontknow HELP YOU GET HOME.

Unless theres some damn good reason why E-2 and Alternate Earths must stay secret, keeping their ID's safe would only be a smart idea if they were from the future instead of an alternate earth.

[kd_the_movie]

I think it all boils down to brand simplification.

When someone asks "Who is Power Girl and Huntress?" it doesn't get much easier than saying" Oh they're the Supergirl and Batgirl from an alternate universe".

[eyz]

But don't read too much into those confusing interviews. Even the writers/people on board are being quite erratic and even explaining badly or partly what things will actually be like.

I'm starting to think the new Earth 2 is going to be the older pre-Flashpoint DCU...

[icon_uk]

IIRC The death of the original Earth-2 Batman was not a great nor a dramatically worthy one.

And don't forget she'd have her grown up big brother to be her guardian until she came of age.

[icon_uk]

Outside of Catwoman, pretty much every female member of the Bat-family has been a 'Batgirl' or a 'Batwoman' of sorts.

As well as Catwoman, there's Spoiler, Oracle and Sasha Bordeaux (not sure how much she counts these days, but...)

And look at the blokes, NONE of them have been allowed to use a Bat-title, no Batboys or Batlads in that lot, everyone has to come up through the ranks of Robin-dom.

With Helena, at least in declaring herself a 'Huntress' she establishes an identity that's uniquely her own, and it actually makes sense for what she actually does. She does actively pursue and capture her prey, and she's already been established as a morally ambiguous and pretty aggressive fighter in the new DCU

But the Earth-2 Huntress she's apparently supposed to have been wasn't IIRC (Yes, she used a crossbow, but she was usually a fairly standard Batclan member) and I think jlbarnetts was referring to a wider history of the character rather than purely the DCnU one.

[icon_uk]

Why in the fuck would they change their names and hide their identities on New Earth if they're actively trying to get home?

So as not to become embroiled in the Super and Bat families of THIS Earth. If they aren't connected, they have fewer ties to break when they return home.

[spacebetween]

If not Earth-2, it should be one of the other Earths

[minyandu]

Depends on how the sex determine region on the chromosome works. Some insects is AB for female while AA for male if I remember it right (and not all animals use the X-Y system).

[jlbarnett]

no I don't think so, because in this world X would always be provided each sperm, and there would be an equal chance of X or Y with each egg. Granted it would only be one at a time, but it'd still be a random one each month

[aeka]

Hmmm, good point about the eggs being the gametes that produce both X and Y. I didn't think of that. :P

[aeka]

Well yes, other species of animals get their sex determined differently, like in the case of bees for example, unfertilised eggs result in males while fertilised ones result in females. However, what I meant by 'default' sex is that all eggs are set by default to produce female offspring in the case of humans, and the only thing that tells the egg to produce a male is the Y chromosome, which essentially "turns off" the female hormones and "turns on" the male ones to produce male genitalia.

[kenn_el]

Why not? What made them interesting in the first place WAS their legacy status, with the added benefit that, being on Earth 2, they were allowed to replace their mentors. Power Girl was the only active 'Super' with Clark's having passed the torch on to her, and Helena the only 'Bat' with E2 Dick not embracing the role and her parents deceaesd. ON Earth 2, they are unique and interesting. On Earth 1, they're more or less redundant. E1 Kara isn't established yet, and there are more than enough BatFamily members who are female, plus Helena W seems to wipe out Helena B. My initial argument against setting the WF comic on 'our' Earth is even more valid, as there are a wealth of possible stories to be told of the 'Super' and 'Bat' team on a newly realized Earth 2, and confusing and not nearly as appealing ones to be told of the 'stranded' heroines.

[icon_uk]

Oh and call me shallow, but Superlad is rather cute! :D

[janegray]

It's possible she meant "identical DNA except for the Y chromosome."

Human DNA is made of 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes. 45/46 is close enough.

[kd_the_movie]

True enough but that kind of assumes that they believe they can get back to earth 2 by themselves. And traversing alternate Universes has historically proven to be a feat not easily accomplished by anyone who isn't a Flash.

Im just saying, IF IT WERE ME trapped on a alternate earth, I would've wasted no time getting help from a younger yet just as heroic/good version of my dad and his friends.

[aeka]

No disagreements there. ;)

[aeka]

My current theory makes sense to me solely for the fact that if they didn't go by a 'Super-something' and a 'Bat-something' on Earth-2 there would have been no need for them to change their codenames upon landing on Earth-Prime. If that wasn't the case, then changing their codenames on a planet where no one actually knows who they are would be pretty redundant.

I'm starting to think the new Earth 2 is going to be the older pre-Flashpoint DCU...

You've been saying that since DC first announced the revival of the Earth-2 concept. :P

[icon_uk]

The fact that it's difficult/impossible isn't the sort of thing that would discourage Kara or Helena (who IS Batman's daughter), in fact it strikes me as the ultimate spur to achieve it for two such women.

And contacting my not-family would be the last thing I'd do unless I needed an organ transplant. One, it would be very weird (Helena noted how odd it was seeing E1 Bruce after her father died, and E1 Bruce had the same reaction to E2 Kathy Kane's Batwoman after she was killed on E1) and two, they might react badly to someone coming up and saying "Hi Bruce, I'm your daughter from another world, except I'm not... except I am" and so on...

[aeka]

This exactly.

Also if Helena should've learned anything from her *own* father is that he's not readily trusting, which would make approaching the E1 version of her father that much more difficult. Also if Helena did her homework she would've learned that this Earth's Batman already has son, which would only make things that much more awkward for all involved.

[jlbarnett]

yeah, I was referring to the original Earth-2 where the original Huntress came from. I think the Golden Age was considered a gentler period back then(nostalgia filters) and this character comes in and basically declares herself a predator and arms herself thusly.

[jlbarnett]

the whole brand simplification thing annoys me. It's like they're trying to appeal to lazy readers, but only readers who are lazy about reading comics. THey'll dig through websites to subscribe and get a hint of character history or search out stores that sell comics, but actually read old issues that explain things? No way pal.

[aeka]

Thing is, Barbara and Stephanie aren't good examples for the fact that they were both Batgirls in the Batfamily, which was the point of my comment. Barbara started off and became a member of the Bat-family as Batgirl, and later became Oracle following her paralysis. The point is, she was a Batgirl. Stephanie, I do agree started off with her own hero identity, but was eventually "upgraded" into both the roles of Robin and eventually Batgirl where she remained until the reboot. The point remains, she was a Batgirl. Even Helena Bertinelli was temporarily a Batgirl during No Man's Land before being forced to relinquish the role and costume that eventually went to Cassandra Cain. The fact that Huntress as Helena Wayne never took on the Batgirl/woman identity despite being literally born into the Bat-family, is part of what made her stand out more and established her as an independent heroine from her father.

Also I'm not sure what case you're trying to build with the male members of the Bat-family since the whole point of my comment was the fact that almost all the women in the Bat-family take on the Batgirl/woman identity at some point, which puts them in the shadow of Batman. I don't see how having the guys take on the Bat mantle would keep them out of Batman's shadow any more than being Robin would. Even when Dick was Batman, as much as I liked him as Batman, it also felt like he lost something a long the way because he didn't stand out quite as much in the role as he did as Nightwing. Under the mantle he stopped being 'Dick Grayson' and became 'Bruce Lite' in my mind.

As for jlbarnett's comment, fair point about the pre-Crisis Huntress.