starwolf_oakley: (Default)
[personal profile] starwolf_oakley posting in [community profile] scans_daily
3 pages and some panels from NEW AVENGERS #27
Hope is in K'un Lun learning about the first time the Phoenix Force came to earth from Iron Fist. Master Yu-Ti and Hope meditate next to a scrying pool.
They find out the Obi-Wan of AVENGERS VS. X-MEN will be...


Say what now?



Given the whole "Hope psychically controlled the Five Lights to follow her because she didn't want Cable to be wrong," I don't like Hope that much.


It is now 616-universe canon that Uncle Ben said this. But they really need a reason he said this. Ben didn't know Peter wold ever get superpowers, and he probably wasn't talking about being a masked vigilante.

Maybe Ben thought Peter would grow up to become a scientist, and Ben didn't want Peter to become a weapon designer. Because in the Marvel Universe, weapon designers are the scum of the earth. Everyone hates Tony Stark for the years he spent building weapons, including Tony Stark. Bruce Banner thinks the Hulk is his punishment for making the gamma bomb. Billions were spent on Sentinels.

Yes, it is a little weird given most Silver Age origins revolved around Cold War militarism, but there you go. Weapon designers are horrible, horrible people according to Marvel Comics.


Question: Are the Phoenix Five acting irresponsibly with their power? They are trying to fix the things that cause people to suffer. At least so far. Cyclops saying "No more Avengers" indicates less responsibility and more pettiness.

Funny coincidence: Hope brainwashed the Five Lights because she didn't want Cable to be wrong. Spider-Man fights crime because he doesn't want Uncle Ben to be wrong.

Random comment: Mike Deodato also did "Sins Past," a Spider-Man story Marvel attempts to justify by saying the story was about how Gwen Stacy was wrong about something and made a mistake (having sex with Norman Osborn while she was still dating Peter). I wonder how Peter Parker would react if he found out Uncle Ben was wrong about something? (It's different than if Aunt May was wrong about something, because Aunt May is wrong about everything. Mary Jane will make a good wife for Peter? Epic fail.)
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Date: 2012-06-23 10:18 pm (UTC)
runespoor: steph as robin, somersaulting joyfully, while cass uses a grapplehook to try and catch up (batgirl&robin | flying)
From: [personal profile] runespoor
I-- I think I'm going to go out and buy this. Because I'm not really a Marvel reader: I read some scans here, and some excerpt on tumblr by osmosis, and this is a crossover scene that I never knew I wanted. But yes. I want it. ~feelings.

Date: 2012-06-23 10:26 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
One of the best bit of the event so far, yes.

Date: 2012-06-23 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Fuck yeah Spider-man.

Date: 2012-06-23 11:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ironspider
Grrrr, just when I thought my wallet was shut for the week I read this post.

Date: 2012-06-23 11:12 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Everyone hates Tony Stark for the years he spent building weapons

I think people dislike him more for his selling of them to whoever would bid on them, without thought to the kind of person he was selling them to.

Yeah, still not liking Hope much, and it has to be said that picking Spider-Man to train her is a really weird choice, since her abilities/personality and outlook have nothing in common with his.

Date: 2012-06-25 04:33 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] vitruvian23
When's that ever been shown, though? The jingoistic Tony Stark of the 60s surely never sold his company's arms to any Communist or otherwise hostile states. In fact, export control laws even then would have prevented him from doing so without knowingly breaking the law and risking imprisonment. Even in the Iron Man movie, the bad guys have Stark weapons not because he or any other corporate officer actually decided to sell them in the open, but because Stane had somehow found a way to divert them and sell them on the black market without Stark's knowledge. How he did that and explained the resulting funds is a bigger mystery than how the arc reactor works.

Date: 2012-06-23 11:28 pm (UTC)
cypherfdp: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cypherfdp
Spider-Man: Good everywhere except his own series.

Date: 2012-06-23 11:32 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (Happy Willow)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie

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Date: 2012-06-23 11:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I like how they try for once to get the original quote right and still get it wrong. It's "With great power, there must also come great responsibility" which makes a bit more sense in the context of Spider-Man's origin.

As for why Uncle Ben said it, I just assumed he was complaining about Eisenhower through Bush, depending on where you are in the sliding timescale, over breakfast. "These damn politicians think they can do anything they want, don't they realize that..."

On the one hand, I like this characterization of Spider-Man and think they're right about the essence of the character. On the other, I'm not fond of having him spell it out so explicitly, being sure to mention the catchphrase of the brand four times. For decades, it didn't need to be said, it was obvious every time he had to punch above his weight for some reason. All those now-cliched scenes- "Can't...unh... give up. Must get Aunt May's medicine to her" or "NO. I can't let her die like Gwen did"-got the message across more effectively than this does.

Back to the first hand, there's nothing wrong with a good heroic speech every once in a while and Steve Rogers can't give all of them.

Date: 2012-06-23 11:31 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Sad (We'll meet again Tiger)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
okay sooo does this take place BEFORE or AFTER AVX6?

also, *sigh* ilike this peter... then i remember THIS Peter sold his marriage to the devil... to save his dying aunt... (who TOLD HIM she was ready to go be with the love of her life in heaven...) Because HE would feel too guilty about it.... (yes... i am STILL quite bitter about that thank you very much..)

Date: 2012-06-23 11:46 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
After, definitly. Hope was with the X-Men before AvX 6, and with the Avengers post.

(no subject)

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just a thought

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Re: just a thought

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just a thought

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Date: 2012-06-23 11:58 pm (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Cyclops saying "No more Avengers" indicates less responsibility and more pettiness.

That's exactly what it is.

Hope brainwashed the Five Lights

I never quite understood how she pulled that off as I thought she was an Empath..granted she also seems to have a magic touch to her that does something to a mutant's power.

Mike Deodato also did "Sins Past," a Spider-Man story Marvel attempts to justify by saying the story was about how Gwen Stacy was wrong about something and made a mistake (having sex with Norman Osborn while she was still dating Peter).

STILL HATE that with every fiber of my being and made me way less of a fan of Gwen. At least in the 616.

Date: 2012-06-24 12:31 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Sins Past is the one Spidey story I hate with a passion more than OMD. Heck even JMS wanted to undo it and he WROTE it. It's horrible when writers 20, 30, even 40 years take characters that are no longer around (dead or retconned out of existence or something) and does something to them that makes no sense and doesn't fit into already established timelines and when confronted with this dismisses the reader instead of the story (which is pretty much how Marvel has dealt with Sins Past). It would be one thing if Gwen was still with us in the regular 616 universe (and I believe one day they WILL bring her back) so she can actually speak/act for herself but she's NOT. Even the infamous sex scene with Gwen/Norman and his "O" face was all in Peter's mind - and he wasn't there.

As for this, I forget who it was at the current Marvel braintrust (was it Tom Tom Breevort? Or someone else) who completely dismissed the idea of the whole "with power comes responsiblity" line as Spidey's mantra. So its ironic that Marvel going back to it (or conversely with the Spider Man film coming out maybe its all about the tie-ins).

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Date: 2012-06-23 11:58 pm (UTC)
sun_man: this is Dick Grayson (Default)
From: [personal profile] sun_man
meh. Hope is so boring

Date: 2012-06-24 12:03 am (UTC)
captainbellman: Blacksad! (Lizard - Blacksad)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
The Phoenix Five have no higher authority than the Phoenix. You can't take responsibility for your actions if there's no-one to answer to other than yourself.

Date: 2012-06-24 06:43 am (UTC)
blunderbuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blunderbuss
Uh, sure you can. Taking responsibility doesn't only mean that there's a higher authority waiting to smack you if you screw up, but actively holding YOURSELF responsible for your own actions, and being responsible to others even if they might have no power to punish you. Spiderman's devotion to responsibility isn't because he fears authority, but because he believes in doing good because its the MORAL thing to do.
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Ok about Ben's quote. I honestly think people are overthinking it and not considering the obvious. I don't think it had anything to do with weapons, science, etc. It has to do with the power you have as a person. Everyone has power. The power to take control of your own destiny. To be responsible for the choices you make. The power to decide what kind of person you become. Being a teen is a journey that can easily decide who you are for the rest of your life. It is up to you to decide who you are. That is a power we all hold within our hands. The question is how we choose to use it if we use it.
esco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] esco
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

Date: 2012-06-24 12:08 am (UTC)
perletwo: say what now? (spidey says whaaaat?)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
Ummm...pretty artwork?

Also Y HALO THAR nice new icon!!! I suspect I'll be using this one for years and many, many crossover events to come.

Date: 2012-06-24 12:18 am (UTC)
michael_ellis_day: (Default)
From: [personal profile] michael_ellis_day
"Maybe Ben thought Peter would grow up to become a scientist, and Ben didn't want Peter to become a weapon designer."

This speculation sounds just about perfect. Ben Parker looks at his bright, gifted, eager nephew who already knows more about science as a boy than Ben knows as a grown man -- of course he's going to think this kid is going to grow up to be a scientist. And given that Ben's brother and sister-in-law had been government agents, Ben had a lot of time to think about bad things happening in the world and the role weapons developers played in such events. So it all fits together.

Date: 2012-06-24 02:17 am (UTC)
majingojira: (Squirrels)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
Remembering Peter's first appearance in Amazing Fantasy, I say those fears were pretty well justified on Ben Parker's part.

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Date: 2012-06-24 12:39 am (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
So, nobody remembers Spider-Phoenix? Nobody?

I may actually post the story because of this.

Also, Peter should totally be teaching a class about confidence issues. Lots of people in MU need it.

Date: 2012-06-24 03:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thandrak
The one with Arcade? Yep!

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Date: 2012-06-24 12:55 am (UTC)
silverzeo: Chaud thinking "No way!" (WTF?)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
"I was also married, but then Civil War happened, and thanks to my flip-floping and not trusting my friends to protect my Aunt May, I ended up having her almost die, and the only way to save her was to 'sell my marriage' to the dev- I mean, Mephisto, to save her, in spite that all the brilliant scientist and powerful sorcerers in the world can't treat a bullet wound. So rather than face my mistakes like I usually due, as even my Aunt said she was accepting of her death, I cave in and made the deal... which then causes Mephisto travel back in time, let some random criminal get away who manged to knock me out with a cinderblock (Spider-Agility and Sense failed there), which lead me to miss my wedding day, but then it turned out not a big a deal as me and my wife were still together, just not married... which means Mephisto just wanted the basic definition of our marriage rather the actual time and love we had during it and kinda made the deal with him non-existant in a weird way... basically my sort girlfriend/ex-wife took the blame for the entire thing, but it was still me who made the choice; but to the public, it was all her. That lead me to save my aunt with the simple performance of CPR , and then I plead my friends to wipe away the memory of my unmasking to the world, thy themselves included, in a one time only spell, which they could have use for other people at the time, just for me, which I ended up ruining because I wanted to act like Spider-Man out of costume...

"So yeah... power with responsibility. I'm the perfect candidate for teaching that now..."

Date: 2012-06-24 02:34 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
Maybe Peter can bring up his Uni Power Experience? He has hosted a cosmic force before and did is successfully.

Date: 2012-06-24 02:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
The Uni Power doesn't have a personality or soul though, IIRC. It's simply a power which has no agency, which is why it bonds to those who can give it direction.

The Phoenix has some purpose beyond having a host because, prior to this story, Jean was the first human to come into contact with it (Clearly this blows that out of the water because someone in Kun-Lun has a link, which is just plain weird.

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Date: 2012-06-24 02:43 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
That guy knows what he's talking about when he hands over GREAT POWER to great responsibility :)

Date: 2012-06-24 03:17 am (UTC)
protogarrett: (Default)
From: [personal profile] protogarrett
How on earth is Iron FIst connected to the Phoenix? That just seems rather random...

Date: 2012-06-24 04:28 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Bendis has been writing that backstory in New Avengers. And yes, it is rather random.

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Date: 2012-06-24 04:37 am (UTC)
selke: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selke
I'm suddenly even happier that a comic shop opened here.

Date: 2012-06-24 06:51 am (UTC)
blunderbuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blunderbuss
You know what? This works. Really, really works. (If you utterly ignore OMD, naturally.)

There's a reason why Spidey is a perfect poster child for the Neutral Good alignment; his entire character is about using power not only for 'a greater good', but MORAL good.

The Phoenix Five, from the look the scans posted here, are using power like a blunt instrument, to create 'a greater good' even if its immoral or questionable. And considering that they should have been TEACHING this to young mutants, it's even worse considering that they should know better.

Spidey is basically filling the same role as Flash in the JLU cartoon, believing that good must also come with moral goodness, otherwise you're pretty much the Justice Lords. Or the Phoenix Five. Whatever.

Date: 2012-06-24 07:30 am (UTC)
littlepunkryo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] littlepunkryo
If you utterly ignore OMD, naturally

And really, who doesn't?

Date: 2012-06-24 07:27 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
He isn't teaching Hope his almost as famous adage? With great aunt comes a great urge to make a deal with the devil?

Though I guess it wouldn't really apply to Hope.

Date: 2012-06-24 09:47 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Hope was raised by Cable so I guess that makes Rachel her aunt

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Date: 2012-06-24 08:04 am (UTC)
biod: Spider-Man summons the spiders, because he is Spider-Man (Marvel Adventures Spider-Man)
From: [personal profile] biod
I like Spider-Man as a mentor and a teacher. He's done his growing, he's in the big leagues, he's even an Avenger now. He's not perfect, but we have Cap for our closest approximation to that. It's an interesting character dynamic.
Of course, anything that isn't exactly what the editors grew up reading, is boring and needs to be plowed over by the devil. yay
Edited Date: 2012-06-24 08:05 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-06-24 09:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Ah OMD, is there anything about Spidey that it doesn't ruin?

And while it does seem a bit corny for Peter to outright tell Hope his motto, she arguably really needed to hear that.

So Hope isn't just the Phoenix's chosen host, she IS the Phoenix? Or at least she's the Phoenix's soul. Which I guess would handily justify the current Phoenix's rampage across the universe -- it is nothing but a mindless bundle of raw power seeking its owner. Of course, this makes what the Phoenix Five are doing that much worse. The "Phoenix", being nothing but raw power, isn't really influencing them at all. They are merely acting the way they always wanted to deep down now that they no longer have to answer to anyone.
Edited Date: 2012-06-24 09:13 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-06-24 03:01 pm (UTC)
shadwing: Psi SW2 Game Card (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadwing
Yes I actually LIKE this explaination, because you know that the P5 are going to claim "The Phoenix made us do it!" while Hope can say "Uh no...she didn't because I AM it's soul, you just had the power...nothing else."

And yeah...exception of OMD standing...Spidey can still be held as the most human, moral compass the Marvel U Supers have got. He's the guy that usually gets the "Hey...wait...this is wrong, we can't do this." line (See Civil War to Tony)

And frankly that is what Hope needs, she gotta learn to connect with Human and Mutant kind if she's going to be the Phoenix, and realise that ALL actions have concequences and she's responsible for every single one. While Scott and Co can teach Hope how to handle power...they cant teach her how to connect with Humanity since they themselves have distanced themselves from Humanity. LOgan is trying again with the School...but still has a long way to go

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Date: 2012-06-24 12:59 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Tamaki Suoh)
From: [personal profile] mullon
This seems kinda ham-fisted and bullshitty, but Pter would probably be a decent mentor for everyone.

I want him to not take it that seriously though. LIke his training consists of sneding her to school and getting her a normal life for once.

Date: 2012-06-24 02:58 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
"I want him to not take it that seriously though. LIke his training consists of sneding her to school and getting her a normal life for once."

How would you manage to do that in the middle of an event like AvX?

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Date: 2012-06-24 01:16 pm (UTC)
jkcarrier: me, at my old office (Default)
From: [personal profile] jkcarrier
"Yes, it is a little weird given most Silver Age origins revolved around Cold War militarism, but there you go."

I think that's just a reflection of the creators' own changing views about Cold War politics in the wake of the Vietnam war (or more cynically, their awareness that their young readers' views were changing). I remember when Iron Man's origin was reprinted in the '70s, Stan Lee's introduction apologized for characterizing the North Vietnamese as one-dimensional villains.
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