Death of the Family Begins

[zabilac]

The Death of the Family crossover event is upon us! For the next few months Joker will be heavily featured in most of the Batman-related comics and some non-related ones.



Now admittedly, this could go wonderfully or horrible wrong but as always your mileage may vary.

Comments

[mrstatham]

Actually, it's more than three months. I think Snyder's story in particular doesn't wrap up till February, at least from what I remember seeing of the checklist.

As it is, it stinks of another DC-imposed mandate for a crossover and feels completely overdone. For instance, if the Joker basically beats and traumatises Barbara in her title, that's going to be another year or two of Joker-caused trauma for her, and we've not even got past Simone bleeding TKJ dry. On the other hand, if the Joker loses to Barbara, that invalidates his threat in the main book where the main story is going on. I just wish they'd brought the Joker back in Batman alone and then basically given the other writers carte blanche to use him as and when they please.

Either that, or there needs to be some serious work as to where each story takes place.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah, I'm thinking Snyder's main arc will last longer than that, but I guess Joker's opening salvo will affect the entire family as a whole, and/or what happens to the other characters will happen in the main Batman book and reflect in their respective titles.

As for the mandate thing--I guess there's a little of it, but from the sound of it there's still a lot of collaboration. A recent interview Lobdell gave to Newsarama said it in the funniest way, along the lines of, "So I find out that the Bat-books are having this big cross-over that's going to affect some of my main characters in huge, messy ways, so I went over to them and asked, 'How can I help?'"

[silverhammerman]

I don't love that we're having another crossover already either, but I prefer this to yet another story that tries to be the new Crisis on Infinite Earths. A crossover like this at least helps to build a more cohesive universe, without seeming like a crossover for the sake of having a crossover *cough*Avengers Vs X-Men*cough*

[mrstatham]

Well, yes. I'd rather have this than the upcoming Trinity War, which just sounds bland and tied into the whole Pandora thing that set the New 52 in motion to begin with, which.. Well, it reeks of the idea that DC could just pull the plug when I'd rather see some commitment to this.

[espanolbot]

Batman: Ack, he's sat on my face!

[bradygirl_12]

It's pretty much canon that Joker knows who Batman is but doesn't care because he wants to keep playing the game, so he doesn't expose his idenitity. With Alfred's picture there, it's pretty clear that he knows. I suppose DC, being DC, could have him go after Alfred to hurt Batman but a 'sane' Joker would know that would be the last straw and the game would be over.

I agree with the general consensus on this comm that the Joker has been over-used and is way too violent and sadistic to justify bringing him back over and over. It's too big a problem but DC doesn't care.

[mrstatham]

Again, my problem with this is bringing him back the way they seem to be. Unless it actually turns out he's using other people to attack Batgirl and the others, I frankly want to know exactly when each story in a peripheral title takes place.

I also don't think the Joker is over-used, I just think the approach to the character has become much too bland. A grounded, serial killer-type approach makes sense in a book like Gotham Central, but where's the imagination otherwise? I'm not saying I want the days of Joker versus Batman in a surfing contest back, but something like a DCAU approach to the Joker would be far preferable.

[icon_uk]

In a word, what we need from the Joker is "capers"; A nice series of themed crimes (with their own internal, if warped, logic) which might, or might not, endanger innocents. but certainly wouldn't be ALL about killing.

[mrstatham]

Absolutely. Bang on. I think I'd just like more variety in what the Joker does than just killing people, really, and again, the BTAS approach, even right through to say, Revenge of the Joker, I think that presented a very varied approach to the character; He could be hilarious and mundane at times, but vicious and downright cruel and horrifying at others.

Capers are exactly what we need, frankly. Just some.. Some variety would be nice. Again, the approach should suit the book he's featuring in.

[icon_uk]

[the Joker raids a jewelry shop, and waits for Batman to appear. Ages later, a number of policemen show up, but no Knight in sight... ]
The Joker: WHERE IS HE? He's never been late! There's a certain rhythm to these things: I make trouble, he shows up, we have a few laughs and the game starts all over again!

And then he makes Harley put back all the jewels she was stealing, because if Batman's not there, there's no point.

BTAS - The Man Who Killed Batman

[silverhammerman]

I could stand to see the Joker retired for a while, and I'm honestly not too excited about Snyder doing another extended arc already. This one will probably take less than a year though, which is good, but I'd still like to see Snyder do something a little less big. Not to say less ambitious, but I mean, low key. Somethings Batman just foils an elaborate heist, and sometimes that's entertaining enough.
My perspective on the Joker overexposure is that since every writer wants to tell a Joker story, and as a "big" villain his stories tend to be extended, he's going to feel overexposed even if they only break him out every couple of years.
And I could really stand to see someone else set up as the "big" villain for a while. It's feels like it's been mostly the Al Ghul's and the Joker for a couple years now, and I'd love to see them do a little more with the others. A sprawling story like this for example, would be perfect for the Riddler. But every writer just kind of defaults to writing the Joker.

[mrstatham]

Snyder's story is only going to be six issues, I think. Which still takes him into March.

[mortimerwclankitybritches]

Anyone care to place their bets as to who is gonna die/be permanently disabled or put out of action (until needed) in this drek?

Personally I think the most likely possibilities will be

a) Alfred, because what better way to get ANGSTDRAMA!!!! into a crappy event then killing off the Batfamily's "grandfather" figure?

b) Dick Grayson, because Didio seems the type to hold a grudge over not being able to kill him off before

c) Cass and Steph: Rolled these two into one because what better way to shut up their outspoken and often overlapping fandoms, than to kill both of them off, likely by manner of stuffing them into the proverbial fridge

Damian is probably safe because DC seems to be desperately pegging him as the "definitive robin"

Barb will be safe for similar reasons and having her own series

Jason also has his own series, and Dc seems to think that "gritty anti-heroes" translates to being more popular

Both factors also make catwoman safe

[mrstatham]

Damian's safe at least until the end of Batman Inc. Given the run's about Talia trying to kill him, I could see it end with his death, given that would absolutely avert the world of Batman #666 that we saw recently.

[icon_uk]

Sadly that would leave Batman Robin-less, and none of the others in a position to backfill the position, which would mean ANOTHER Robin, making FIVE in five and a bit years (yeah, I know Tim wasn't a Robin, but....)

[ablackraptor]

I could see Alfred dying, but that would make things far less Siler Age like, and the Didiot seems obsessed with turning things into a dark, twisted take on them.

Dick's got his own series too (and as he's my favourite DC character and its one of the only two series that I'm following from DC, I severely hope its not him), so that goes there. But, When DiDio was forced to backtrack on a decision to get rid of someone before he's never missed a chance to get revenge on their fans.

Cass and Steph, these two seem the most likely, but for obvious reasons (namely they're awesome, and the latter is the one who got me into DC properly in the first place) I really hope not. Killing them would open p a shit storm and, likely, piss off some of DC's talent since some of them seem to be fans of the two as well. However, DiDio's proven before to be a collossal ass when it comes to these things, and he's yet to really give either a solid chance. Even the times he appeared to give the character's a bone (gave Cass Gates of Gotham, which IIRC was intended as being her story alone, and gave Steph her own series) ended up not quite as generous (Cass was demoted to minor supporting status in GOG, and Steph's series was cancelled despite being critically successful, and from the looks of things he expected/wanted it to fail so he could claim he was being generous when it did so (and despite it being successful it didn't stop him claiming that it didn't do nothing for the character)). So, it wouldn't be a stretch to be fearful that they may die by the end of it.

That's annoying me a bit. I do like Damian, he, when in the right hand, makes me laugh, but he's anything but Robin Material. Robin is supposed to be the kid who keeps Batman out of the dark and on the straight and narrow so he doesn't become a depressed grimmy grim vigilante, while Damian is a psychopath who needs to be told not to kill. I don't want to see him die, but I'd proffer him with a different title/role.

Agreed on Barb, but, being recrippled might be an option if the recent poll on DC's facebook page about returning to the old Universe is actually going to happen.

Well, unfortunately, they do usually sell more than they should. Gritty anti heroes appeal to the lowest common denominator (AKA, twelve year olds who think Punnisher and Wolverine are the greatest heroes ever), but this annoys me since DC's always been about idealism; They tore down the dark and edgy anti hero nonsense with stuff like Knightfall and What's So Funny About Truth..., so its sad that they're acting like its the Dark Age. If they're so obsessed with the Silver Age, why don't they at least try to write like that instead of making things so dark they become dull and lame.

Catwoman's also just been in a film and there's rumours about another attempt at a Catwoman film, so the chances they'll pass up on the opertunity to cash in on that are unlikely.

[silverhammerman]

Alfred returns to life as the Outsider, doesn't get more Silver Age than that! Plus, it would be totally ripe for an excessively grim'n gritty redux; Alfred as a bloodthirsty metahuman gangster who knows Batman'sd secret identity! It would be horrible!
I don't know about Killing Cass and Steph. I mean, I think Didio might do it, because the consensus seems to be that he hates the characters, but I think there's a chance it won't happen, primarily because they haven't appeared in the New 52 yet. If they were to come back for this arc, and then one or both of them die, it would come off as a astonishingly lazy and petty, and maybe lead to some bad publicity. So I think they might not kill them. And I mean, killing them would mean acknowledging their existence on any level, which we all know is an absolute no-no.
I agree with the sentiment that Damian is safe, since DC wants to make him the "true" Robin, despite the fact that paired with Bruce instead of Dick he's really just kind of boring and bratty.
I'd like to suggest Commissioner Gordon as a possible death for the story. He's an established enough member of the Bat-family, or at least an ally of, that DC would be able to trumpet the "shocking/nothing-will-ever-be-the-same" nature of his death, but has also been a minor enough character since the reboot that no writer has any upcoming plans for the character that could be derailed.
I didn't know DC did a poll about the reboot. That's interesting, but it might be even more confusing if they went back to the old continuity now. Not that I expect that to happen, because that would mean an admission of error on their part, when DC seems determined to blame everything on the fans.

[littlepunkryo]

Most people I know seem to think it's Tim who's gonna get messed up somehow, mostly because he's the only one stuck in a team book and not his own series and that he's the one they've already changed history-wise so much. A lot of people feel he's been made kinda into the "extra", "non-important Robin" now, especially with Damian. I don't really agree and I can't see Lobdell being okay with one of the characters he writes getting messed up because of a crossover he's not in charge of. We'll see I guess.

[icon_uk]

Dick has more of an expendable cast, with the circus folk that mean a lot to him, but we hardly know, being sitting ducks for a Joker scheme and some easy angst.

[kenn_el]

Tim's parents are a possibility. Actual 'family', but with no status within the Batbooks to change if they are removed.

[silverhammerman]

Also, kind of hilarious that they're trumpeting this with "The Joker's Back!" like that's some huge thing. Yeah, he's been on the sidelines for a year, but with the current pacing of stories that's like, maybe 4 story arcs. It's not like we haven't seen him in half a decade and this is some triumphant return.

[cyberghostface]

Just wondering, how long do you think Joker will have this look (wearing his skinned face like a mask)? It's an interesting concept but not something I see for the long term.

[mrstatham]

I still think there's something more going on with it, personally. I don't think Capullo would get so aggravated by his look being revealed if he didn't have something more up his sleeve. Even if it's just something as creepy as the face actually coming off, given it doesn't seem to be held on too well.

But it depends. It'll last at least as long as Snyder's lead writer for the group of Batman titles (eat it, Liefeld), I think.

[mortimerwclankitybritches]

Oh god... I think I have just managed to guess what the plot of this crossover is gonna be

Given the title is "Death OF the family", and the chess motif in one or two covers, im gonna guess right now that the story will be based around the Joker splitting up the batfamily/making them fight eachother for idiotic reasons.

Thus setting up a future crossover where they all (except Steph, Cass, or Tim who will all likely have been killed offpanel by Stiltman) get back together again in order to fight the Joker's next "Big Return"

Not only that, but this whole "redesign" of him will be in order to sculpt him into being more like Heath Ledger's Joker, thus giving him the "XTREMEGRIMDARK!!!!!" factor that seems to be DC's overwhelming editorial desire.

The best we can hope for now is that the writers were able to save those on Didio's shit list, and that whatever comes now does not drive us to imbue apocalyptic levels of cheap alcohol

[eyz]

Why the need to always overuse the Joker?
You know what would be my dream-Bat-epic crossover? A Two-Face one. In my eyes he's always been the most interesting and full of potential Bat-villain.