Batman and Red Robin #19

[flint_marko]

Batman wants to use Frankenstein to help him find a way to bring Damian back to life.




Alerted by Alfred, Red Robin arrives.







Tim has his Titan Jet destroy the jab. He tries to ask Batman to understand, but Batman just glares at him and leaves. Frankenstein asks Tim for a hand putting himself back together.

Comments

[mrstatham]

I would say it's heavy-handed, but I can really see what Tomasi is probably going to be going for with these next few issues; #18 was reacting to the immediate aftermath, #19 is about denial. I like the way this is going, and without the momentum that Batman Inc needs to push it to a conclusion, I like that Tomasi is able to explore some proper idea of grieving, especially when it's Damian, who is someone Bruce arguably should have been closer to in the time they had around each other, but never had the chance. #20, with Selina, should be interesting.

But.. Yeah. I'd say Bruce is being a complete dick here - and some bits of it really are dickish, especially his not putting Frankenstein back together, but it at least has solid reasoning behind it, to me.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah--unlike with Jason, Bruce is kind-of strained with his whole family after what happened with The Joker, so he almost doesn't have the support group that would keep him more balanced.

It's a shitty situation everyone's in, but I can understand most of their actions and feelings at this point in time.

[icon_uk]

Though the"strained with his whole family" thing was just so... contrived, that it doesn't make anything else linked to it feel remotely authentic.

[silverhammerman]

I'm still annoyed that we didn't actually see or get a decent explanation for why the Family was fractured in that issue. We just got told that the Joker talked at them and suddenly they don't trust Bruce, because the Joker is apparently just so scary and the most badass villain ever, so we're not supposed to actually care about justifications and nonsense like that. I think really broke the rule of showing instead of telling and soured me a bit on Snyder.

[filthysize]

If you look at the solicits that have been released for the next few issues, Tomasi is pretty much following the 5 stages to a tee:

#20 Anger: "The massive fallout from the recent events in BATMAN, INCORPORATED take Batman to the very limits of his sanity…will The Red Hood pull him back—or push him over the edge?"

#21 Bargaining: "What deal would you make to bring someone back from the dead? And in this issue, it’s Batman vs. Batgirl!"

#22 Depression: "Bruce Wayne continues to grind through his grief over the death of Damian—but is Catwoman here to help Batman or take advantage of his vulnerable state?"

[mrstatham]

Ah, my bad; I thought Selina was in the next issue, but that kind-of makes sense that Jason's up next. I do find it interesting they involved Tim in this one, but then I'm not sure where else he would fit in the scheme of things, especially since Dick obviously has to represent acceptance.

[filthysize]

It does feel like Tim's the leftover after all the 4 other slots are taken by their more obvious avatars (I really like the idea of Barbara as bargaining, especially if Tomasi does what I think he's doing, by relating it to her status as a survivor).

Hell, he's not even the real "denial" personification here. It's Frankenstein.

[mrstatham]

It'd make more sense if the old history was still in place, as icon_uk has pointed out, because Tim would at least have that sense of struggling to bring his friends and parents back and eventually having to accept that he shouldn't, and that he can't, that it isn't right.

Without that history, it's meaningless and just makes him look weirdly dickish given we know him and Damien were never the best of friends.

[elf]

I can understand Tim as "denial," especially in the retconned-away context of his original origin story. Tim was the one who confronted Batman with the fact that he wasn't coping, that he needed to face reality and move forward.

No idea what Tim's "always Red Robin" origin might be.

[coldfury]

I understand this is a story about grief... but...

The grandfather of the son he's so furiously mourning is an 'immortal' driven to insanity by his Lazarus pits, pits he's been steadfastly against using in the past.

This feels.... amazingly out of character for Batman. Batman has always been the pragmatic superhero.

I'm not the biggest follower of the character, so maybe I'm wrong.

[protogarrett]

Agreed. Buuuuut, then again I think a Lazarus pit is where Damian will end up in the long run anyways. Then be turned crazy and against Batman. I give it 2 years tops.

[icon_uk]

Well, inconsistency is hardly new in this regard.

We had the great scene in the Return of Ra's Al Ghul where Dick talks to Tim about the inherent risks of using the Lazarus Pit to revive his parents, and Kon, but leaving it to Tim to make the choice, and how proud Dick was when Tim is strong enough to acknowledge that it would be a BAD idea, and hopes that he would be strong enough to make the same choice in the same situation.

Then Morrison has Dick think what a wonderful idea it would be to dunk "Bruce's" corpse in a Lazarus Pit to bring him back, and it ends badly to say the least.

[b_dangerous]

Then Morrison has Dick think what a wonderful idea it would be to dunk "Bruce's" corpse in a Lazarus Pit to bring him back, and it ends badly to say the least.

When you're grieving the loss of someone, it puts you in a different place. You think irrationally and jump to bad conclusions. At least there was consequence to Dick's actions that affected near everyone in that plot. In fact, Dick making mistakes kind of made his run as Batman more endearing.

[icon_uk]

There's making a mistake because you're grieving (and the Batclan know more about grieving and the motivation of loss than most) and there's marching through a minefield in size 16 army boots when you've just spent some time guiding someone else carefully through it.

Dick deciding to use a Lazarus Pit was a remarkably stupid idea from the word go, but to do so so soon after building an entire multi-part croossover about just how godawful an idea using a Lazarus Pit was just struck me as BEYOND stupid.

[b_dangerous]

Tomasi has never been very good at keeping Bat-Fam characters... well... In character. He likes to drag out pointless plots that have already been resolved or have quick fixes for the sake of tension. This often baffles me since his run on Green Lantern Corps had a consistently smooth flow to it.

[icon_uk]

His Nightwing run remains one of my favourites because he was about the only on to remember what Dick's character had used to be; gregarious, well connected and respected, not afraid to ask for help from other heroes....

[b_dangerous]

I'll have to check that one out. Thanks for the rec! <3

Ever since Blackest Night, his Batman-specific stories have been all over the place and dragged out to the point of stupidity.

[icon_uk]

It's a fun run IMHO, he was building a new base for himself in New York, and the JSA came over to help him set up... just because he's Nightwing. Mr Terrific designed him a new motorised hang glider to get around the city on. Wally came over for a beer. He decided to take up high altitude sky diving as a hobby just for fun.

[b_dangerous]

See, THAT sounds incredible! Something the New 52 has been missing is the Dick Grayson who enjoyed having fun.

[icon_uk]

Is ANYONE in the DcnU actually having fun in their heroic roles? (I suppose Bunker probably counts but I'm hard pushed to think of many others)

[b_dangerous]

I know if I was in the New 52, I wouldn't be very happy either. D:

[long_silence]

His son dies so Batman tries to bring him back as a Frankenstein? Damn that's crazy even for Bruce.

Also Superman and Batman dying is still in continuity?

[darkknightjrk]

Yep. In a recent issue of Morrison's Action they used it--key difference being that Doomsday isn't the name of the creature, but the day Superman died. They've also mentioned in Nightwing during the Requiem issue that Dick took over for Batman while he was all lost in time and stuff.

[icon_uk]

That was also mentioned in issue 1 of Nightwing, that he'd just spent a year filling in for Bruce as Batman.

[darkknightjrk]

I know--I just figured I'd mention the more recent examples so I don't get a " they don't know what their continuity is anymore" thing going.

[chrisdv]

"If he's a Frankenstein, he can't die & I won't be alone again..."
"Bruce, that's seriously messed up."
"NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK TIM, YOU WEREN'T EVEN REALLY ROBIN."
"...I'm telling Alfred."

[icon_uk]

And yet again, the DCnU fails because we've seen so little of Bruce and Tim actually interacting, that it's impossible to gauge what their actual working/family relationship was like and how out of character any of this might be.

[sistermagpie]

Pretty much. I barely get anything about who anyone is to each other. I can't figure out why they decided to destroy the whole family foundation to do a death in the family.

[onceaskrull]

OP: Appropriate icon is appropriate.

As for this, if the entirety of Bruce/Tim's on-panel interactions consist of them bickering or fighting, I'm disappointed. It may make sense given the current state of the Batfamily, but I was really hoping they'd get in some decent time where they'd talk and/or work together on something. Ever since Tim had the Robin title taken away from him, I haven't been quite sure just what Bruce and Tim's relationship is supposed to be in the DCnU.

[superfangirl1]

Even though what Batman attempt was absolutely insane. I can see why he try to do it with unrealistic hope.

[sleepymax]

From these pages I have to say this book looks horrible.

Batman torturing and using experimenting on someone against there will? I'm not really interested in that.

[sun_man]

Tim is such a douche

[flint_marko]

Tim's the douche here?

[silverhammerman]

Well for a certain value I'd say so. As Bruce says, resurrection is totally a thing in the DC universe, so him pursuing that avenue is maybe not entirely healthy, emotionally, but it's nonetheless a perfectly valid thing to attempt. Tim coming to stop him instead of trying to help is kind of a dick move.
I think it depends on whether you think Bruce would be able to succeed, if he could, Tim's a dick for hindering him, if he couldn't, Tim's just trying to keep Bruce from going crazy.

[long_silence]

Bruce was performing vivisection on Frankenstein. He literally cut him into pieces to see how he ticked.

And he stole cadavers from a hospital. To test on.

Bruce has gone off the deep end

[silverhammerman]

I see, that context was lacking, in that case Tim was definitely in the right.

[sun_man]

this is the DC Universe how is that going off the deep end?

[flint_marko]

When did abducting someone and experimenting on them against their will become ok in the DCU?

[lieut_kettch]

Good thing this is the Nu52. Otherwise, Bats could've called Tim out for his efforts to resurrect both Kon AND Steph.

[mrstatham]

He didn't try to ressurect Steph, did he? He tried with Kon, and considered it with his parents, but..

[q99]

I really do dislike the 'we rebooting things but kept in multiple resurrections.'

[blunderbuss]

You know, considering how many people HAVE died and come back, it's refreshing to see someone acknowledge that and actually take a crack at it themselves. I mean, why WOULD you think death was permanent in the DCU?

I would honestly be interested in a series where Batman travels the world trying to find ways to bring Damian back, from dealing with Hades, to cloning, to magic, mad science, and so forth.

[darkblade]

So what's he going to sell to the devil?

[althechi]

His relationship with Catwoman, a-duh.

[donnblake]

Well, classically, it would be his soul, generally with some specifications as to when the devil could collect. But that assumes that he goes to a literal devil, not a metaphorical one (like Ra's, asking to use a Lazarus Pit).

[mrosa]

This is hilarious! Batman is even grim and grittier than in the '90s, trying to resurrect dead children, WTF???

[big_daddy_d]

I really like this. Feel like it's handled better than in other books with the exception of Nightwing's issue that was great fallout, but still seeing Bruce lose it like this... it just makes sense. He lost his son. His flesh and blood. Worst the cause of death is due to the failure of himself as well as his heel turned mother, who is definitely more at fault. I like this. Bruce is so down that it even leads him to making questionable (morally so) choices in his despair. When you lose someone you love it will really fuck you up to where you will drown in darkness all on your own. It is a scary place to be in.