Deb Aoki on Conventions, Cosplay and Jerks

[jlroberson]

A rather piercing comment on sexism and comics fans, from Deb Aoki (by way of Tim Young at Deconstructing Comics). First page here, link to the rest below.




Read the rest here.
Not totally sure how to tag this one.

Comments

[bj_l]

My housemate is currently in America with family. She is a massive geek, and frequents many comics in Australia where she's treated normal. Like any other customer with a passion, they talk they joke, etc.

She's been to a couple in America and each time her sisters and her walked in you could hear a pin drop because "oh no girls what do we do". It's pretty sad.

[auggie18]

Where in America did she go? Do you remember any specific names? I make an effort to avoid shops that are creepy to women. Maybe I just have really good comic shop karma, because my local shops have all been pretty girl-friendly. (Particularly my current one, Comicopia in Boston, which has a primarily female and super nice staff.)

[arise]

opposite question: where in australia does she go? maybe i've just been unlucky, but most of the shops here (especially in melbourne) i've had really uncomfortable experiences. =(

[filthysize]

Opposite story: I know comic stores that instead of being afraid of and awkward around girls, they actively make them feel unwelcome.

My partner stopped buying comics monthly for years and became a trade-waiter who bought trades from Amazon after every store she went to in her area would constantly assume that she doesn't know anything about the comics she's buying. I had never in my life had any comic shop employee ask me if I know that the latest issue I'm buying is not the first issue and that it's a continuing series that I have to buy every month, but apparently she's been asked this multiple times. Plus a myriad of other casually condescending remarks that made her feel like a pest on their little boys clubhouse.

It was a while after we dated before I finally convinced her to come with me to my LCS and meet the people who work there, who are incredibly nice and staffs women and as far as I know don't stand around joking about superhero tits all the time (1/3 of their inventory are all-ages stuff and they have a lot of kids customers, but the owner shrugged off the Saga #11 controversy as a non-issue and stocked it anyway--a store after my own heart). She now has a pull list with them, and even prefers to buy her trades there at a more expensive price than online just to support the store.

It just makes me wonder, though, how many women out there who are really interested in comics, but are made to feel too intimidated to even go into comic shops. LCSs are a dwindling business, and yet they're chasing away money?! That's fucking insane to me.

[not_overjoyed]

Hopefully she can find a good one quickly. They do exist in America; the one I frequent is pretty girl-friendly, and I currently live in the deep south. However, there is at least one local store that I have had a similar pin dropping experience in. Unfortunately it can take a bit of searching to find one that a girl can be comfortable in.

[autohobbs]

This actually kind of upsets me. Yes I read the entire comic, and yes I even read the whole, "It should be obvious...I know there are men out there who aren't like this." bit, but it still doesn't change the fact that the piece itself presents itself as a generalized attack on male comic book fans. Not only does the central character state generally that all men who like geeky stuff are bad, but the artist also portrays the men as either corporate dickheads, or fat geeks with pimples...

I understand the intention behind this, as there is a huuuge issues in the community in regards to respect of women, but this is not the way to point it out. I might be the odd human out on this one, but as a guy who loves comics, and is constantly upset with the way women are portrayed in them, this just completely offends me. :(

[coldfury]

I don't think anyone tried to claim it as representing 'everyone'. But both the scenarios presented in this comic happen. If anything should be offensive, it's the fact that this comic is true to life more than we'd like. I don't understand how you can see this as a personal attack.

[glprime]

I read it less as the bulk of the social essay and more a poetic anecdote included as illustration. I'll admit those two "we respect women" panels seem kinda tacked on, but there's a genuine memory the creator seemed to be trying to portray, over and above a wide "message" or "critique" (which might've come across better in the full final paper).

I don't mean to deflect your disgust or tell you your reaction is "wrong," but saying, "this is not the way to point it out" is a kind of dismissing hand wave.

I'm more rallied to seek out and properly socialize with my fellow non-fella geeks than get mad that asshole knuckle draggers are causing artists to use them as examples of "bad guys."

I'm a geek who's often judged by his appearance ("he looks mad/depressed," "he must do drugs with sunken eyes like that," "I bet he's a total creeper") and this a geek girl being judged by her appearance. I see this as an opportunity for empathy.

Every time someone I happen to be demographically homogenous with makes a bad example of "Us," I choose to use my own freedom of expression to present myself as a counter.

Be a Good Guy. Be a Man. Be a Gentleman.

Is it my responsibility? Maybe, maybe not. But when only the loudest idiots get heard, the intelligent need to speak up more often.

[elf]

It's not a "generalized attack on male comic book fans" to say "it's been my experience with comic book fandom that..." etc.

My personal experience with male comic book fans, in person, includes:
1) Corporate dickheads
2) Fat geeks with pimples
3) Skinny geeks who can't stop twitching
4) Medium-size geeks wearing in-joke t-shirts and sneering at anyone who doesn't get the joke (or doesn't think it's funny)
5) Geeks who think anyone who can't recite the history of Batman since the 40's is a poser
6) Geeks who think anyone interested in non-superhero comics is a poser
7) Non-geeks who've been caught by the latest media blitz and insist that their interest in this one movie character in no way makes them a comic book geek, and all comic book geeks are losers
8) The occasional not-socially-inept geek who can hold a conversation with a female without staring at her nipples, insulting her taste in comics, or insisting she's of the wrong physical shape for this fandom.

#8 isn't super-rare... but he's far outnumbered by versions #1-7.

If you're in category 8 (and I don't question that you are), please be aware that, as much as you might think "don't insult her or treat her like a walking sextoy" is just how people should relate to each other, regardless of gender, the majority of your fellow fans have not figured this out.

And with them ("them" being the consensus-building majority, the nebulous group that decides acceptable public behavior) dividing "acceptable fans" and "waste-of-space posers" across gender lines, the ones placed in the latter category are likely to divide "my potential allies" and "hateful oppressors" along the same lines.

This happens even when there are exceptions. It happens because they *are* exceptions; they are the occasional incidents of "doesn't fit the pattern," not common or consistent enough to be considered a subgroup. Right now, the majority of publicly-active male comics fans act like women are obligated to look like anatomically-improbable heroines because they can't possibly have enough brain to enjoy the stories. If protecting ourselves from them--which includes warning each other of the problems we've faced--hurts the feelings of a few of the decent men, that's a sacrifice we're willing to live with.

[monkey12]

Um, are we seriously going to say that female comic fans aren't allowed to complain that they are subject to incredibly condescending and sexist behavior? I mean, isn't it possible that in this comic she generalizes male behavior because that's the type of behavior that she is exposed to? If this is indicative of the majority of her experiences when attending conventions or other gatherings, then it doesn't matter if a few "bad eggs" are dragging down everyone's reputation; as far as she's concerned there are only a few "good eggs" out there preventing us from being completely irredeemable. Even the type of language she uses, that she is "very aware that there are men that don’t subscribe to this attitude," suggests that she can only acknowledge their existence academically and not from personally interacting with anyone like that.

I think it's time to own up to the fact that we (speaking to male comic fans) have unfortunately earned our reputation here. If we aren't happy with how we're viewed both within our community and without, then we need to take a more active role in not just showing that we do not support this behavior on an individual level, but that it is unacceptable in general and that we will neither actively nor implicitly condone it. Until we can prove that we don't approve of this sort of treatment of female fans, or any group of fans, then we can't realistically expect other people to be able to easily distinguish us from those who appear to be simply our most vocal members.

/soapbox

[sadoeuphemist]

Oh my god, she literally has a post up on her tumblr right now apologizing to anyone who got offended and thought the comic was criticizing all men. She is just way too nice for her own good.

[leoboiko]

I'm a male comic book/fantasy/videogame fan and I feel exactly the same way as the comic strip’s author.

The last episode regarding Anita Sarkeesian, for example, made me feel deeply ashamed of liking videogames at all, and wish I had nothing to do with it.

[turtlefu]

You know what's productive about being a male feminist? Doing something about it. You know what isn't productive? Whining about how all feminists think men are sexist.

In fact, I feel like this argument is a bit of a derailment: women, no matter what they do, are met with a certain level of hostility in the community. Instead of recognizing that, let's instead falsely claim that the comics portray ALL MEN AS DICKHOLES. Which is a real problem in this world because men are treated sooooo poorly because everyone just thinks they are so terrible, right?

Have some perspective. You know, it sucks when you occassionally get lumped in with some awful stereotypes because of your gender. You know who that happens to every single fucking day of their lives? Women.

[capnduckman]

I dunno... maybe I go to the wrong cons. I've never seen people act like that at conventions, they've always been so... welcoming.

[icon_uk]

In fairness, you would be attending these as a man (or that's my assumption about you, apologies if I'm incorrect), so the likes of you and me would have a completely different experience from a woman in the same situation, especially one cosplaying.

The difference between gender experiences still surprises me (and rarely in a good way), because I'm not used to thinking about how different it is.

I think I saw on Wil Wheaton's blog (or tumblr, or something) a while back about attending a meeting on personal safety with both male and female attendees.

The men were asked what preparations for going out at night. Most said nothing in particular, that they had their keys and their wallet or something.

But when asked, the female attendees came out with a long list of precautions and preparations they had to make, from checking the streets they knew they would have to walk down to see if any of their friends had had bad experiences, to checking where the car parks were and if they were lit, to mace sprays, to carrying their keys between their fingers, to , to making sure that someone knows where they are at all times.

It's rather depressing that such things are even a consideration.

[md84]

Wouldn't the cons without too many assholes be the right cons?

[gunny]

I dress up at Gencon every year and every year I get unwelcome gropes from behind. One year, a hand went under the back of my frayed skirt and between my legs. I turned around and everyone was looking at their booths like nothing happened. I never once saw anyone glance back in my direction or anything suspicious. Which tells me that my assault was done by a person who has become very "professional" at sexually assaulting women without being caught or giving himself away. Yes, I can say with 100% certainty it was a guy because there were no women within 20 feet of me - all guys.

It takes me an incredible amount of energy to muster the courage to cosplay and I deal with at least a couple hours of crying anxiety beforehand because I know someone is going to put their hand(s) on my body without my consent. I WON'T let anyone put me into such a state of fear that I give up doing what I love.

[Edit - icon isn't directed at you but the way I feel about my experiences]

[arise]

so sadly true to life. :( that page basically sums up the first/only time i tried cosplaying.

[md84]

What kind of assholes give someone else grief for enjoying the same hobby they themselves enjoy just because they happen to be different? Seriously, I'm honestly having trouble believing that people like that exist. Which I guess makes me seem incredibly naive.

[icon_uk]

If it's any consolation, that it appals you speaks well of your character.

[md84]

This comic is especially poignant for me since I also happen to be a gamer, and a lot of the problems addressed in it apply to the gaming community as well. Videogames fall under "Geeky stuff" right? There's a reason people felt the need to coin the term "girl gamer". As if it's somehow unusual for a girl to play videogames.

[wizardru]

I consider this terribly sad, more than anything else.

The thing that most annoys me about the 'fake geek' label or the hostility many female fans experience from male fans is that it is so counter to what our desires were when I was a teenager in fandom.

I mean, when I was attending my first conventions back in the 80s, female fans were rare gems. A girl who KNOWS COMICS and Doctor Who?!? And LIKES THEM? Sadly, I now realize this is probably partially likely to be due to a hostile fanbase that I never at the time noticed being so directly hostile to female fans. Which is doubly irritating, as being a geek is supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive. Growing up playing D&D and reading comic books and watching Star Trek...these things made us outsiders. Being geeks bonded us together as a clan and CONVENTIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO FUN, SAFE PLACES WHERE WE CAN GATHER TO ENJOY WHAT WE LOVE WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO LOVE IT, TOO. It's supposed to be a place where we don't hear the negative criticisms about being a geek. The no-true-scotsman accusation has no place in geekdom.

It just angers me that some fans could treat their fellows this way.

[jmacq1]

It seems that to some extent geekdom has fed into its' own stereotypes. There are probably some deep rooted self-esteem issues from the male side of the equation, too. In other words the idea that a girl could be genuinely geeky AND physically attractive and especially maybe even interested in having a genuine conversation with them just does not compute, and their hostile/suspicious reactions are a reflection of their own lack of confidence rather than anything else.

Well, that and a massive case of cognitive dissonance for failing to realize that all geekdom starts with -something- and that "geeky" things have become vastly more mainstream in the past few years. That's the real tragedy of that particular scenario to me: That we have a lot of potential "geeks in the making" (of both genders) out there that are being turned off/turned away by the entrenched "hardcore geekdom." Like any fandom, the "hardcore" always seem to have a problem accepting that "casual geekery" is entirely possible, and just because they can't tell you which villain appeared in Detective Comics #293 doesn't mean they don't have a genuine interest in Batman.

[kurenai_tenka]

The second one is particularly apt, but I kind of want to punch everyone who's reblogging her apology (and the post itself, I didn't read the notes) telling her what a terrible person she is and how she needs to apologise but still hasn't apologised enough for them.

This response is just so infuriatingly typical.

[sadoeuphemist]

If it makes you feel any better I'm pretty sure some of them aren't even talking about the comic itself and are just using the opportunity to dredge up some old ~tumblr drama~

[jmacq1]

I often can't help but wonder how much of the hostility directed towards uh..."inaccurate" cosplayers is simply subconscious resentment that those folks have more balls (so to speak) than they do.

Not to say that the overall culture isn't the primary "feeder."

I'll admit, I haven't seen this kind of thing happening first hand, but ultimately I also haven't been to that many conventions and honestly I haven't looked for it.

As a guy with FAR from a "superhero build" I often admire the courage of those with equally less-than-(false)-ideal builds wandering around in tight and/or revealing costumes.

[bradygirl_12]

That comic is heartbreaking! It's why I stay away from cattle calls like SDCC and other comic cons. The one con I've gone to in recent years is so off-the-radar now you don't get this kind of stuff too often, and it's mostly women, anyway.

I shopped at an LCS years ago that made me feel uncomfortable. Nothing overt, just didn't have the right vibes to me. It was one of the reasons I stopped buying comics. When I resumed my pull list, it was at an LCS with women on staff. The male staffers made me feel welcome, too, and so they get my business.

That comment about preparations for women and men to go out at night is so depressingly true. Men don't have a clue what it's like to be a woman in a sexist world. They go around about their business without having to worry about creeps and stalkers and other potential threats. That's in general, of course, as some men wind up with stalkers.

Eh, just venting. Sometimes I get so fed up with this biased world.

[onceaskrull]

I'm glad you found a LCS that fit your needs. It's one of the reasons why I'm happy to see digital comics getting so big. I like local comic book shops and want to support them (haven't found one since I moved...) but removing what, for some women, may be a principle barrier between them and their potential interest is absolutely something I endorse.

I go to SDCC and WonderCon, and I'm privileged in that I haven't (yet) experienced any direct harassment. But I know it's there, and I think that it is something that absolutely must be brought into the open, discussed, and fixed, because I think conventions can be extremely fun, and I would love for there to come a time when everyone feels welcome.

(Also, on an unrelated note, I took a peek at your icons--which I often do when I'm replying to someone--and serious love for some of the icons/pairings you have there.)

[icon_uk]

And at the other end of the scale we have one of those geeks we should be proud to have around summarising what is best about us.

Wil Wheaton explaining why it's awesome to be a geek.

And also proud proponent of the worthymantra of life "Don't be a dick"

(To which I might humbly append "...but if you HAVE to, try to make sure it's Grayson")

[elf]

Or, "the world already has a perfect Dick. If your name's not Grayson, stop trying to steal his name."