espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
In the pantheon of comicbook characters, there are some that people can't stand even if other people seem to be big fans. In my case, there are probably three characters that I have an intense dislike of.

One is Kara Zor-El, from when she was introduced by Jeph Loeb up until after the Cass Cain Incident, where she became a lot more likeable. Her behaviour was retconned as it being Kryptonite poisoning, which I guess makes sense in a comicbooky way. Her feeling entitled to the perks of being related to Superman while a) beating up every superhero she met (who then thought she was the best person ever afterwards), and b) repeatedly being incredibly selfish while exhibiting annoyance when people asked her for help, didn't really endear me to her.


People who get given a free ride (unlimited cash from Bruce Wayne and a mentorship with Wonder Woman among other things) and doing horrible things without consequence kind of bug me. I mean, her behaviour is believable, in a spoilt, entitled brat kind of way, but considering I was reading about characters who had terrible backgrounds yet still managed to be good people despite it... yeah, Kara came off as kind of loathsome.

With the character of Misfit they had kind of the same problem, though approached from another angle. With Supergirl she felt entitled to a certain level of treatment because of who her relatives were, while with Misfit she just assumed that she deserved to be the treated like she was the best thing ever because she thought that she was.

Things probably weren't helped by her introduction, which in the midst of the "Where's Cass" business of One Year Later, showed the people of Gotham as being both ungrateful for Cass' service to their city and kind of gross in how they remembered Bab's tenure.




Smooth, but implying that Cass was just a fake proxy of Babs, while at the same time reducing Babsgirl (and Misfit by proxy) to just a "Killer" pair of breasts. Nice.

Considering Cass had vanished at this point after going to Serbia to look for Lady Shiva, Babs sends the Birds of Prey out to see whether this new Batgirl is her protege as no one had seen her during the time 52 was set, beyond a reference to her operating (offpanel) out of Seattle for a time.

After a brief run-in with Dinah and Helena, Charlie desides to teleport into Babs' HQ and declare that she's the new Batgirl. Understandibly Barbara is concerned over some random teenage teleporting into her headquarters and displaying knowledge over things she really shouldn't, but Charlie just interprets this as the standard "superheroes distrust each other when they first meet" trope.

With this in mind, she attempts to use the follow-up cliche to that one, where-in she kicks the wheelchair using Barbara in the face. With it previously being established that Charlie has a degree of superstrength.















Okay, two things: 1. I know that Babs can handle herself, but kicking people out of wheelchairs just isn't something you DO, and 2. considering Steph's death was later shown to be fake and the photos are of some poor anonymous drug addict Leslie swapped out for Steph so she could smuggle her out of the country, Barbara having the photos so ready to hand is kinda gross.

Anyways, the Birds later find out that Charlie is actually homeless, her family having burnt to death in an apartment fire that she wasn't able to save them from (Charlie's teleportation power makes other people explode if she tries to take them with her... don't ask her how she knows this), so Babs caves and sort of adopts her.

As such Charlie is made a member of the team though just whether that's a good thing is up to debate. At one points, in a crossover with the Secret Six, she ended up getting into a fight with Harley Quinn, in which she resorted to her ultimate fighting technique: hurtful namecalling.



At this point Charlie wasn't an official member of the team, as such, which resulted in the older member's plans occasionally being derailed due to her Scrappy Doo-ish need to insert herself into the action all the time. This resulted in her grating the nerves of some of her teammates...



This culminated in Misfit deciding to teleport herself into a mech's cockpit while it was stomping around Metropolis, and making it explode by pressing random buttons. This makes a large area of the city seemingly vanish, and eventually results in the Birds of Prey getting evicted from the city by Superman.

Prior to the eviction though, Barbara suspected that the exploding mecha might have been magical in nature, so she calls in Black Alice to give an assessment. The BoP had previously attempted to hire Alice, but a combination of various reasons made her decline, such as her then untreated mental illness. At this point though, Black Alice is trying to make an effort to be a superhero, has gotten treatment and is trying to help out Bab's with her problem...

...The problem is that Misfit feels that Babs bringing in Lori so soon after the Mech Incident is less Babs wanting an expert to help out, and more Babs wanting to replace her for possibly killing thousands of people by accident. This results in, you've guess it, childish namecalling with a sideorder of bullying the mentally ill person!







Later...








And so, Charlie makes Black Alice relapse into supervillain again. Good job.

Eventually in the lead-up to Final Crisis occurred, with that mess of a storyline where Granny Goodness was apparently kidnapping superpowered teenagers in order to make them fight each other to the death so the survivors could be Darkseid's army... or something. It only tangentially relates to Morrison's story, which really works better as a self-contained work (besides the Batman-related stuff at least).

Anyway, in that arc Charlie and Alice... or Lori as her real name is, turn out to be half-sisters. Which was confusing for so many reasons. Nothing overtly bad happened here from what I remember, besides Livewire having to loose to Charlie in a cagefight (hey, I liked DCU!Livewire, she tried so hard by never got anywhere! :().



Oddly, you'd have thought that after Cass was debrainwashed that she or at least Steph would have met Charlie at some point, despite Babs deciding to fob her off on Huntress to look after instead at the end of the Calculator arc. However, despite a brief cameo in Adam Beechen's Cass Cain mini-series (urggghhh) Charlie's final preboot appearance was when Barbara announced that she was going to make Oracle more secret than she was originally, more of a shadowy figure than the superhero community's IT department.




Urgh, still maintain that Cass isn't there because Babs warned her Charlie had invited herself first.

I guess that I can understand why people would like Misfit, as there's always an audience for "quirky" characters... I just felt it was jarring going from the likes of Steph and Cass to someone who is essentially Scrappy Doo with enforced pathos.

There are characters who are jerks that are also entertaining or have some depth to their personality, such as Revy from Black Lagoon or Haruhi Suzumiya from the franchise of the same name. Even the massive entitlement complex is something that Charlie shared with Selina Kyle, who also grew up homeless in Gotham, and subconsciously stole to overcompensate, but she outrgew it in the end. But I kind of get the impression that Charlie wasn't intended to be as horrible as she ended up, which is actually kind of depressing.

Date: 2013-07-23 10:55 am (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
wow way to lay the character bashing thickly.

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Date: 2013-07-23 12:06 pm (UTC)
ozaline: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ozaline
I really have no opinion on Misfit since I've read very little with her in it... Supergirl on the other hand I think really just suffered from bad writer after bad writer who kept bouncing back and forth the "is she (and her father) good, evil, or insane" ball too much. I agree she was totally selfish and stuck up most of the time, especially in the arc where she tried to cure cancer... but it seemed like it was because the writers had no idea what to do with her and what to do with the mess that had been made of her backstory.

And to be fair she didn't have unlimited funding from Bruce she sold him some Kryptonian tech for one million dollars. Still outside her own book she was much better and there were some good ideas in there.

But yes things got much better when Gates took over and it wasn't that much of a retcon either, it made perfect sense... "You've been having dellusions, waking dreams and rapid mood changes... hey maybe there's a neurological reason for it, like toxicity in your system!"

Date: 2013-07-24 04:22 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Someone can correct me but I believe she sold him the Kryptonian tech AFTER betraying Power Girl and selling out the people of Faux-Kandor to their version of Zod and then hightailing it back to Earth to get money off of Bruce by selling valuable technology so she could buy her own townhouse and get away from Superman. I remember that arc so well because it was the first team-up of PG and Kara/Supergirl and started OYL and PG gave her a bunch of "What the Hell, Hero?" speeches non of which Kara seemed to hear and then at the end instead of feeling guilty about what she was done (leaving a whole city to suffer under a dictatorship) she just shrugged it off. And that was the arc written by Greg Rucka! Our "heroine", ladies and gentlemen. I have no idea what DC was thinking with that.

Date: 2013-07-23 12:48 pm (UTC)
his_spiffynesss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] his_spiffynesss
I look at that line up pic in the second to last scan and I can't help but think "One of these things is not like the other"

Charlie might have worked somewhere else besides the Batbooks. She stands out like a sore thumb with all the other characters.

On the upside, if Cass and Steph are unlikely to be coming back into the fold any time soon, I would expect Charlie's chances are next to zero.

Date: 2013-07-23 01:23 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Default)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
Apparently, according to Gail's Tumblr, Misfit is actually connected to . . . Gemworld. Yes, really.

Date: 2013-07-23 01:32 pm (UTC)
applemagpie: (manny)
From: [personal profile] applemagpie
I've always seen Misfit as being part of the Birds, not the Bats (although you could argue that Birds of Prey is kind of a Batbook)

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Date: 2013-07-23 01:22 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Default)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
I felt Misfit's introduction was honestly pretty bad, but after the revelation of her past utter failure, I softened to her greatly and got the amusement of a character trying way to hard and . . . annoying the hell out of the rest of the cast. Aside from the non-Gail arc stuff posted, most of the cast after her initial appearance 'tolerated' her. I think a true scrappy has to be accepted by the cast rather than just 'tolerated'.

A lot of the non-gail Stuff didn't work well because I think the writer didn't get that she wasn't really part of the team, but a tolerated . . . misfit with nowhere else to go.

Date: 2013-07-23 01:50 pm (UTC)
applemagpie: (manny)
From: [personal profile] applemagpie
I personally found Kara and Misfit somewhat humorous and enduring because they came across as typical annoying teenagers/kids. (Also felt the same about Damian)

Date: 2013-07-23 01:59 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Yeah, Misfit never really bothered me that much because she reminded me of a lot of people I knew in high school.

Weirdly enough, Supergirl bothered me for the same exact reason.

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Date: 2013-07-23 09:17 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I don't think Damian could be put in the same category--the reason why he was such a messed-up kid was that he had a completely and utterly atypical childhood--or at least one where all the violence and brainwashing was apparent and not implied.

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Date: 2013-07-23 03:11 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
I actually really love Misfit. a lot of the post here skips over the character development she has gone through. she became more accepted by the heroes as her dedication and story progressed.

i also think that this seems like unneaded character bashing. there are ways to show you dislike a character with out it coming off as straight up bashing them, which i thought was frowned on here....

Date: 2013-07-23 08:25 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Didn't she accidentally cause quite a few civilian deaths in Metropolis? I remember reading that story and wondering how the heroes were gonna get away with that one.

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Date: 2013-07-23 05:21 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I personally tend to think that Gail stopped giving a fuck around about the time she wrote Death of Oracle. Because that plan makes NOT A LICK OF SENSE. You're going to ditch the massive support network that relies on you as an actual big sister with an obnoxious Orwell-riff and then expect the villains to actually buy that someone DIFFERENT is out there using the exact same team of heroes that 'Oracle' used to work with before she 'died'?

That said, this is the same Oracle that found it okay to continue employing a girl Misfit's age after the bullshit she pulled using Not!Steph's corpse. Because employing a sixteen year old with a temperament like Charlie's makes SO much sense on a quasi-black ops team.

Date: 2013-07-23 06:14 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Presumably working on the principle that it's better to have someone like that around, where you can at least keep an eye on them, than have them running around loose. (cf what happened to Dodge, the teleporting kid over in Robin)

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Date: 2013-07-23 08:40 pm (UTC)
majingojira: (Default)
From: [personal profile] majingojira
IIRC, The "Death of Oracle" story was editorially mandated.

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Date: 2013-07-23 05:37 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: Charlie Crews vs. Faucet (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I remember reading somewhere that Misfit was going to be Barbara's version of Bat-Mite. And Charlie being from the 5th Dimension makes sense in how she knew so much about Barbara that her teleporting powers don't. Also: teleporters don't set off motion detectors? Huh.

Charlie and Black Alice were examples of how TERRIBLE Barbara was at mentoring young heroines. As were Cassandra and Stephanie, really.

Date: 2013-07-23 06:46 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Off-point observation, but why is Steph the only one not named in that x aka y lineup? Was it in Batgirl?

Date: 2013-07-23 07:57 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"How old were you when you first started Babs"

it would have been nice if

"25, after I finished my PhD, why do you ask?"

had been an answer, but I suppose that was retconned by this point.

I haven't seen enough about Misfit to like or dislike her, but I can sort of see where her presentation could be grating to some, such as starting out showing off by using Babs name all the time to brag that she knew the secret. That sort of thing doesn't make me warm to the character, but I suspect I wasn't really intended to at this point.

I think it depends on separating a character who is written badly, from a character who is written well, but just isn't necessarily a pleasant character...

I can respect the work that has gone into a character whilst acknowledging that I don't LIKE that character.

I had much the same reaction to Sunspot in the New Mutants. He was an irritating, arrogant spoiled little brat most of the time, with that's because he was deliberately written to be.

Or Tony DiNozzo on NCIS, his character is heroic (and Michael Weatherly seems like a perfectly charming man in real life, and I thought him slightly lovely in the "Dark Angel" TV series), but I could happily punch the character on general principle for being something of an arrogant, self-serving git.

So I can admire their aims and achievements, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in a lift with them for any length of time.

Date: 2013-07-23 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"had been an answer, but I suppose that was retconned by this point."

I'm pretty sure it was. I got the impression that Batgirl: Year One deaged her to the point where she was in her very early twenties at the most.

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Date: 2013-07-23 09:01 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
A couple of things: I don't think you're alone in disliking intensely Kara Zor-El from the time she was introduced until basically Sterling Gates took over (which encompassed several years of storytelling). The decision to write her as distinctly unlikeable and bratty (and not that bright either if it comes to that) was clearly an Editorial decision for some reason as they had writers like Greg Rucka and Joe Kelly on the book (i.e. writers who know their Superman characters) and her obnoxious-ness was consistent throughout. If she was called on it (and she was by Power Girl OYL but that plotline was dropped) it might have worked but no - we're really supposed to believe she was the greatest thing since sliced bread with her being mentored by Batman and becoming an official Amazon and all.

I was always thought Grant Morrison made a mistake during Final Crisis and turning Mary Marvel into a corrupted villian (which in turn made her a running joke character in Countdown) because it would have made much more sense based on the Supergirl character established at that point for Kara to turn into Darkseid's minion (and indeed she had been corrupted by him before in her first Loeb/Turner arc). It would make her more likeable and sympathetic portrayal following Final Crisis make sense if she had been the one to go through that (as it is the rest of the super-hero community pretty much seemed to ignore Mary Marvel after FC so Geoff Johns could make her evil yet AGAIn in JSA) Morrison was actually going against her character as written at that point in Final Crisis (it shows he never read the actual Supergirl book and said he based her personality on her one-off appearance in Waid's Brave and the Bold).

As for Misfit, I didn't mind the character (in small doses) but I felt she was all wrong for the Bat-Verse. A character with actual super-powers (and one who was very casual about using them at that) in Gotham never seemed to fit. It also started the unfortunate trend in pre-reboot Babs of her ditching her teenage protegees without a word and just collecting others. I blame Bryan Miller rather than Simone for this but it was disconcerting to see Babs in the Batgirl title pick up Steph and Wendy and take them in while literally never mentioning Misfit or Cass (both of whom regarded Babs as a mother/sister figure).

Also, was that dismissive "mopey" line about Cass basically being dismissed in comparison to Babs and her big boobs (since when?) really written by Gail Simone? Wow.I must have missed that the first time around.

Date: 2013-07-23 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"I was always thought Grant Morrison made a mistake during Final Crisis and turning Mary Marvel into a corrupted villian ... because it would have made much more sense based on the Supergirl character established at that point for Kara to turn into Darkseid's minion (and indeed she had been corrupted by him before in her first Loeb/Turner arc)."

...Holy shit, I never thought of that until now. That would have been pretty cool. Plus it would have worked in that it would have meant that the condensed form of the Marvel Family would have saved the DCU, more or less.

I liked Misfit.

Date: 2013-07-23 10:48 pm (UTC)
thepinkperil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thepinkperil
They were doing a fine job of moving the BoP away from the Batverse, setting them up in Metropolis and later to Platinum Flats. But then the death of Batman thing screwed it all up and series was ended.

Misfit was established as having a villain as a father. I presume it was also Black Alice's father but the book ended before anything more could be explored. The accident in Metropolis was going to be dealt with, but again, na-da.

Charlie said her powers scared her mother. Idolizing Batgirl, she decided that genetics wouldn't dictate her future. So even though she was poor, unpopular, homeless, and watched her family burn to death, she stayed positive.

I always thought it was very out of character to have Babs just dump Charlie and Lori. Two powerful, messed up teens that needed to belong. Editorial has the final word.

In the end I hope Misfit and Black Alice don't make it into the DCnU, leave them in multiverse limbo.

Date: 2013-07-23 10:49 pm (UTC)
zechs80: (Mayuri)
From: [personal profile] zechs80
Cass was actually supposed to appear in the Death of Oracle. Heck, I think it was originally solicited that she was gonna show up too. Instead, the name drop via Tim and what Babs said was the best Gail could do given Morrison snagged her up a month or just two weeks later.

Date: 2013-07-23 11:53 pm (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
IIRC, Gail confirmed at one point that Misfit was intentionally an annoying and unlikable character, since she was supposed to be Babs' Bat-Mite.

Doesn't mean it was a good idea, but at least its not a case of a Breakout Character backfiring.

Date: 2013-07-24 02:54 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
I liked Misfit a lot, and I felt like she had a decent arc under Simone -- she was super annoying and crazy because she'd gone through *serious* tragedy and had no outlet to deal with it. She started getting better once Babs all-but adopted her.

And then Gail was of Birds of Prey and I cannot remember who the writer was after her but sweet zombie jesus did the entire book go into the crapper after that. And Charlie became just a spoiled brat, which is something she *never* was before.

Kara I totally agree with you on, she was terrible until Sterling Gates got his hands on her.

What this all seems to be, summed up, is "Characters written by bad writers are bad."

Date: 2013-07-24 03:59 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
But Kara wasn't written by bad writers. Except for fill-in one-shots she was given pretty good writers (like Rucka and Kelly) and she was written as unlikable and violent and selfish by all of them. Which meant that direction must have dictated to by Editorial for reasons known only to them (did they really think Supergirl needed to be "dark and edgy?)

Date: 2013-07-24 05:37 am (UTC)
bariman: by perletwo (Default)
From: [personal profile] bariman
"Always meant to work up some floor-level fighting defenses with Dinah, when I got around to it but it always turned into hot make-out sessions for some reason."

They bullet is awfully intact for something pulled out of a human spine. And awfully big, for that matter; unless it still somehow has the casing on it. In which case, it's a fake as those photos of Steph's corpse.

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