Iron Man: Fatal Frontier #8

[arbre_rieur]

"It's about the Moon. The romance and symbolism of the Moon as much as the actual heavenly body, this place that we used to go to and don't anymore, this symbol of the imagination and the unconscious that we actually walked on. And I suppose it's about progress, and the shape progress takes." -- Al Ewing

(Note: Keep in mind that this is one of Marvel's online Infinite Comics. They're designed to be read on a digital device, with each page replacing the previous one on your screen. When the pages are instead side-by-side, stacked vertically, like in this post, it can make for an awkward reading experience. Also, the format makes page count a tricky matter, but if you count each "slide" as a page, then this is under 1/3 of the issue.)

At the Symkarian lunar embassy, Tony Stark has a meeting with Arthur of the Circle amidst interesting scenery.











Arthur explains that he will help Tony, but on one condition: Tony kicks Dr. Doom's Doombots off the Moon.







And so it comes to pass that, two days later, the Latverian lunar embassy receives some odd visitors.





















However, during all the ruckus, one of the Doombots sneaks into Tony's lab, from whence Tony is remotely directing his armor on the battlefield. Catching him unawares, the Doombot overcomes him easily.

Comments

[drtechnobabel]

WARNING: Extreme Dr. Doom fanboy gushing below. Proceed with caution

And THIS is why Dr. Doom is one of my favorite supervillians: hiding in plain sight while letting Tony deal with the rest of the competition for the phlogistone, then using Tony's own arrogance against him to sneak into his base, disable his armor, and trap him in a wormhole thing; it's an impressively clever plan, and in the the end, it worked. Now, other than the Knights of Symkaria, Doom is the only major phlogistone miner left. Whether he actually planned all the details or not, the fact that Doom came out on top without having to interfere directly up to this point speaks volumes of his planning skill.

Of course, this is all speculation until the next issue comes out, but this series has been getting more and more interesting with each issue, so I can't wait to see what comes next, which I did not expect to end up happening back when the first few issues of this series were posted.

[leoboiko]

And just a few issues back Tony was questioning why does Doom make Doombots who all think they're Doom. Well, this is a good reason why: endless disguising opportunities.

[cypherfdp]

To add to this, as soon as Tony realizes this is the real Doom, he realizes that he's fucked. I think that's one of my favorite qualities in villains, the ability to silence a room just by being there. It's like that one DC event where Trickster mentions that when supervillains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories.

[cainofdreaming]

The trope that science-based heroes can't fathom the existence of magic is starting to get old. Tony's forged magic artifacts in dwarven forges, for Odin's sake. He knows magic exists. He's even used it to power one of his armors.

[drexer]

It's not that he cannot fathom magic I think, it's that he doesn't plan for it.

Magic is like Calvinball so Tony does not trust in it as a stable element to incorporate in his plans so he developed a blind spot for it across time.

The grand deception here wasn't even magic itself, but Doom's presence; one would think that if Tony knew Doom was there he would have invested mroe in preparing against this case.

[cainofdreaming]

But that's not what is said here, and pretty much every time the trope comes up. It's that Tony doesn't believe in magic, truly believe in it, and if he'd take it seriously it'd destroy him. That's very much the trope.

[vspope]

It's not that he doesn't believe magic exists, it's that he classifies it as a type of sufficiently advanced technology.

[cainofdreaming]

That's not what is said here either.

And I've seen Tony say that myself, though I've not read every appearance so it might be there somewhere. I do remember the opposite happening occasionally, though. Like in the time travel story when he and Doom went to Camelot - he acknowledged it, though he didn't like it. Well, he admitted that it could have its benefits after he got Excalibur.

[drtechnobabel]

To be fair, it's Doom that's saying this about Tony, not Tony himself, so we can't say whether it's actually the case or Doom just being his arrogant self by believing he and only he can truly comprehend both science and magic. After all, Reed has once said to himself that while he can't understand how it works (preventing him from using it himself), he's willing to recognize that it exists, so Tony could be in a similar boat. Then again, the writer may intend for us to agree with Doom, so we'll have to wait and see which is the case, I guess.

[nyadnar17]

Believing magic exist isn't enough. To use magic in marvel you have to believe, truly believe that you can alter reality simply be wishing really hard. You have to believe that the relational connections you form in your head correspond to actual relationships in objects in the real world. The laws of magic are complete at odds with the laws of science.

In science a thing and it shadow have no relation. The shadow of an object is not a thing, but rather the absence of light caused because the object blocking light from getting beyond it. In magic an object and its shadow are intimately tied. You can stab a knife into an object's shadow and hurt it.
Can you see how crazy that is? How bizarre it must be for someone who truly understands the physics involved that you can shove a knife into the absence of light and harm the object causing that absence?

[cainofdreaming]

How crazy it is? About as crazy as most of the other stuff that goes on in the life of superheroes. In an universe with Power Cosmic, where Grandmaster can pull dead people to life to fight you, where a man can impregnate a woman so that she can give birth to him, where getting shot causes you to go back in time and Celestials live do you really think magic is going to be an insurmountable hurdle?

[arilou_skiff]

It's a difference though. The Power Cosmic and similar things can be "rationalized" by simply having large amounts of power to play with. It can reshape the universe becuase the universe is just matter and energy, and the Power Cosmic can move these stuff around. You might not know exactly how it works, but you can tell what kind of thing it is. (like say, a 19th century railroad engineer seeing an airplane)

OTOH; magic is like said engineer being confronted with say... an intricate form of poetry. There are rules there, but he doesen't have the faintest clue where to start with deciphering them. (assuming here that our hypotethical railroad engineer was not a poet, which many probably wer,e or at least were familiar with poetry)

[cainofdreaming]

Those things break the laws of physics, operate under their own rules, just like magic. How do you explain, for an example, forcing evolution within a single individual rather than between generations? It simply doesn't work that way. Yet there are beings who can do that in the Marvel universe.

And then there's cosmic cubes.

[nyadnar17]

Science is based and rooted in the idea that an objective reality exist.
Magic is based and rooted in the idea that all reality is subjective.

With science the more you understand how the world actually works the more you can do.
With magic the more you understand that their are no rules, simply externally imposed points of view, the more you can do.

In Marvel, Magic is not simply significantly advanced science . Its literally anti-science. Tony Stark believes that magic exist, but he can't put himself in the mindset to use magic because that mindset is antithetical to him.

[cainofdreaming]

Cosmic power (edit - at certain level) is based and rooted on the idea that objective reality is subjective. Yet while Tony has no problem with that he, and all the other scientist characters, are supposed to have a problem with another thing that operates on the same principle.

What's the difference between cosmic cubes and magic?

And he has used magic. He's made an armor powered with a magical artifact. And forged some himself. He's just not a magician himself. Which would require much more than just belief in its existence.

[arilou_skiff]

No it isn't, cosmic power is based on the idea that if you have sufficient power, you can do anything.

[baroncognito]

This is Doom talking. I'm sure that if Doom had trapped Tony in a cardboard box, he'd be still be saying "all your technology is meaningless in the face of a power you cannot even comprehend."

"That is the difference between us, why DOOM is your better. DOOM knows where to get refrigerator boxes!"

[cainofdreaming]

Yeah, but the power bit is usually continued with ".... that is DOOM!" rather than a diatribe about the hero's inability to understand magic.

[icon_uk]

I'm never entirely sure how much of a good idea it is to lampshade the whole "Status quo" thing in comics, unless they plan on doing something about it, and this clearly isn't going to do that either. Either all will be as it was, or else we'll have Tony make some sort of a smug "The status quo... I can live with it" line at the end.

[drexer]

But they end up having to do it one way or another.

Just check the discussions on the first issues of this and how people were bothered by the concept of an 'untouched for decades moon' when due to various events in the Marvel universe this isn't perfectly true. This story works if the reader gives it the benefit of it wanting to explore themes relative to space exploration and the human outreach towards the moon as analogies to our current status quo; but of course it will not hold up as well if people want to dismantle it due to the volatile nature of those same concepts in a universe where space operas like stories are ocasional events.

That's partly what's being brought into attention here, lampshading that this story works within our actual societal status quo and yet does not follow perfectly the estabilished rules and events of this universe, even while a basis for the story is Tony Stark's desire to push humanity away from that same status quo. At the same time he tackles with an emerging society whose basis for existence is an energy source that by definition will not permit the status quo to mantain itself.

[jlbarnett]

how dictatorial can you make these people

[nyadnar17]

Alright I feel a little slow. Am I the only one who didn't catch on to the fact that Tony's exposure to the phlogistone is whats making him so extra dickish and controlling?

[arilou_skiff]

Yes.

[psylynce]

It's never just you.
My excuse is that I've only been reading the scans, I'm sure it's more obvious in the full format, which I will get to purchasing one of these days.
I am delighted that Doom got one over on Tony.

[servant_iskandar]

Indeed, someone apparently got a little high on Metatron (well, not really, but the analogy with Zone of the Enders is amusing).

Also, Victor pulled out a nice reversal here (and as others have noted, it's a rather amusing first). Now, let's wait and see Tony's predictable comeback.

[icon_uk]

That may be the case, but it's also the fact that for the most part, this isn't that different from Tony as he usually is presented.

[draganoche]

Has Doom ever pulled the acting like he's a doombot trick, cause that seems like something a writer would have already used in the decades since doombots have been introduced

[dr_archeville]

I don't believe so, no.

[servant_iskandar]

Never before this, if I recall correctly. Victor's done a fair bit of acting or masquerading as other people, sometimes even switching places with them (ah, that ol' Ovoid mojo), but he never pulled this kind of stunt before.

In fact, I think a few people - John Byrne comes to mind - are slapping their foreheads at such a downright great missed opportunity...

[donnblake]

I think once, after one of his absences from Latveria, there was a scene where the folks who had taken over in his absence were walking down a row of dormant Doombots, talking about the preparations to dismantle them, only to find to their dismay that the last one in the line was the real Doom, but I can't remember where I might have seen that.

[donnblake]

Right, because a show of force has always been the best way to get Doom to back down without open conflict.

Oh, Tony.

[qalchemist]

I'm calling it now.

Doom wants to destroy/get rid of the phlogistone too.

[cainofdreaming]

Of course. All those boorish peasants it attracts ruin the scenery. Moon castles lose all their splendour with them around.

Dracula wants them gone too.