Wolverine and the X-Men #40

[flint_marko]

"That's all I'm asking."

Comments

[freezer]

I'm going to be fair and assume that "You killed Xavier, you Xavier-killer" isn't as prevalent in the full comics as it tends to be in the scans here.

Because GODDAMN am I tired of it.

And I'm also going to assume that Logan doesn't talk out of his ass nearly this much: "You don't hate yourself nearly enough?" Yes, because MORE self-loathing mutants is what we need! And "Jean knew what she was?" Really? Was that during the times where it wasn't actually Jean? Or the times when it was Phoenix-possessed Jean?

Seriously: Fuck you, Logan.

[jlbarnett]

well, other things happen but from what I've seen when it comes down to issues with Scott it's pretty much "You killed Xavier, you Xavier-killer."

I mean sometimes they get on him about his actions since then. But everything since then ties back to killing Xavier

[icon_uk]

And "Jean knew what she was?" Really? Was that during the times where it wasn't actually Jean?

About the only defence I can make there is that original Phoenix Jean always believed she was Jean 100% of the time, up to and including her "death".

The fact it wasn't the original Jean is more or less irrelevant because from X-Men #101 to X-Men #137 Phoenix always acted as if she were.

[filthysize]

"Was that during the times where it wasn't actually Jean? Or the times when it was Phoenix-possessed Jean?"

That's kinda beside the point, though. Logan's the kind of guy who thinks people should take responsibilities for the mess they've created, intentional or not. Hell, he says as much in this convo.

Whether or not it's fair, Jean actually took responsibility for becoming the Phoenix. She committed suicide to spare the world from the Phoenix and take responsibility for all the people she murdered.

It makes sense for someone like Logan to see Scott's "It wasn't actually me, I didn't mean to" defense as whiny and hate him for it.

[starwolf_oakley]

I have wondered if Scott is trying to be more like Logan, at least at certain time, like A VS X.

"This time *I'll* to be the rebellious one who won't play by your rules!"

And keep in mind, when Logan first showed up in the X-Men, he was supposed to be VERY young, like just out of his teens, even though he was working for the Canadian government. That's why his attitude was the way it was.

When Logan fills the teacher or mentor role, it is usually so young mutants WON'T turn out like him. Jubilee refused the kill the hitmen who murdered her parents *and* the guy who hired them BECAUSE she knows, through Logan, how awful killing someone is. (And now Jubilee is a non-killing vampire, but ignore that and maybe it will go away.)

[shadowpsykie]

i kinda like her as a vampire... girl took out two sentiles with Warpath's knife.... and she kills.... erm re-kills... vampires....

[md84]

'I have wondered if Scott is trying to be more like Logan, at least at certain time, like A VS X. '

Didn't Emma claim this was true in Whedon's Astonishing X-men run?

[psylynce]

I think what you're saying is exactly it. In A vs X Consequences Scott leaves Logan a note that says
" You urged me to be the better man. I'd like to be that. I honestly would. But when you're being the better man, I don't need to be. Instead, I can be the man who does what's necessary."

Logan seems to be continently forgetting the bus loads of students that got torched back in the New 'Mutants: Childhood's. No mutant school's an island.

[shadowpsykie]

hmmm part of me will write drunk make up sex fan fic with them....

the other part of me is OMG STOP USING JEAN! and Stop using with the Xavier-Killer thing.

i am annoyed to no end that Wolverine holds other people to a standard higher than him. also, PLEASE logan you may think you have the gold standard on guilt. but Scott is a lapsed catholic, guilt is our frickin' birth right!

[md84]

Scott and Logan will never stop arguing about Jean. You might as well ask for Doctor Doom to make up with Reed or the Red Skull to adopt pacifism.

[psylynce]

That first part of you needs to get on that right now!

[skemono]

When Speedball gets drunk, are there actual pink bubbles floating around him? I hope so!

[pteppic]

I actually quite like this.

After all the sh*t of A vs X, and Logan and Scott normally acting like a pair of three years olds and a ripped toy, this is rather pleasant. They're having a discussion, and whilst there's still "loathing" there, there's a little respect and some reasonable sounding dialogue. Both men are hurt, but they're both talking.

I like this.

[ablackraptor]

Agreed, its nice to see them getting along and not shouting. I think Wolverine's arguments are all full of BS, but I like that he seems to still hold respect for Scott, who likewise still respects him.
Given the issue solicited 'Cyclops vs Wolverine', I'm fairly glad this is what we got. I'm thinking of getting this issue next time I got to my LCS, despite my 'no Jason Aaron' rule.

[spacebetween]

Well both Cyclops and Wolverine do have valid points here and it is good to see them being somewhat sociable towards each other.

[ablackraptor]

Is this how the issue ends? With them getting drunk together and finally reaching some kind of mutual peace? Because, if after this these two start getting along, then maybe, maybe they can phase out this Schism? Then maybe A+X can end with Cyclops and Cap burying the hatchet too, and they can stop trying to make the superhero community hate him? Because, I'd like that, like that a lot. I'm OK with them being still wanted by SHIELD for now, but if we can get an end to this 'MUDEREEEER!' idiocy, then one of my only three current beefs with Marvel will be over and I can fully say without any doubt that Marvel is how it should be right now.

Also, I don't know if I've said this before, but what really, really bugs me about Jason Aaron's writing is that he always does the whole 'Cyclops vs Wolverine' argument thing, and when he does, he actually gives Cyclops a lot of good arguments and generally makes him the most agreeable character in the situation, but then its clear from how he writes it is that we're not supposed to agree with him. Especially since we're supposed to agree with Wolverine, and all his arguments are utter BS. I mean....
-"It sure looked like you." And it sure looked like YOU, Logan, all the times you've killed innocent people or tried to kill innocents while possessed. Hell, in a recent comic he cut off a guy's arm because he got pissed at him, not to mention all the times he tried to kill innocent or mostly innocent people 'for the greater good' or whatever, as noted before.

-"You killed one and teamed up with the other." 'The other' who surrendered and asked to join their side, before saving Kitty from her space bullet. Magneto has done terrible, terrible things. So have you Logan. He wants to make up for those terrible things. Just like you Logan. Stop judging him, and judging Cyke for giving him the chance to. You didn't have much problem with him doing that when you were on his side. It still bugs me how everyone keeps judging Cyke because he gave Magneto another chance to do good.

-"Jean knew who she was and what she'd done." After the original Dark Phoenix saga, the first time they saw Jean after that mess they accepted her with open arms. When she was going crazy, they tried to calm her down. Wolverine's first response to seeing Cyclops start going Dark Phoenix was to just kill him, and the Avengers and other X-Men let him. Jean also felt bad for what she did, as does Cyclops here, but Jean (or the Phoenix copy of her) killed billions of innocent sentient beings while Cyke killed one fairly douchey man with a lot of douchey secrets, and while they still all love Xavier, that doesn't change the fact that they're holding Cyke to a very unfair double standard. Sure, he's not the 'sweet innocent soul' Jean was, and he's done a lot of bad things himself, but that still doesn't mean he deserves to be held accountable for every last bad thing he did while possessed by a cosmic entity he was not supposed to control.

-"you put your people on a path to war." ...No, no he didn't. The world around him did. Mutants were reduced to less than a hundred in their numbers, they had genocidal mad-men gunning for them at every side, every day they faced extinction, to the point that when he only lost ONE teammate, he could call that day a good one since he didn't lose more. They were in the shitter, and like it or not, they had to take off the kiddy gloves and strike back or die horribly. Despite all these things coming at them though, Cyke held the group together and took down what was coming at them; his actions weren't pretty, but he kept them alive. Be grateful, you self-righteous sack of shit.

-"I know I made my own mistakes, but I'm trying to do good." So, its OK for you to seek redemption, but while Cyke tries to make up for his mistakes by saving mutants from people who'd hurt them, no, he's gone too far and he needs to pay? Seriously Logan, do you not see why that's so hypocritical? Its nice you're trying to do good, but instead of being a baby, let Cyke do good with you.
-"When I go down, I go down alone, but when you go down you'll take us all with you." Who, exactly, is currently teaching a school? A proper school, with tons of students? Who is currently the one in charge of the big team of X-Men? Logan, if you 'go down', there's a good chance it'd result in all those kids going down too. Cyke, if he goes down, really, all it'd do is turn him into a martyr since all these in-universe liberal kids love him.

-"You don't hate yourself nearly enough." Uh, yes he does. Its pretty much a character trait that he doesn't think very highly of himself, and since Xavier's death he's pretty much suicidal. Hell, does he not remember that Cyclops wanted him to kill him? You should know more than anyone how much Cyclops hates himself, and frankly, its disgusting to tell someone they should hate themselves, especially when you know they have mental issues.

-"These days your too much like me." How? When Logan did bad things, especially when he killed people, it was usually because he had serious issues controlling his behaviour. He sometimes took lives because he felt it was needed, but that's actually fairly rare, and more often than not, it was just because he was feeling fairly violent at the moment. In short, he's an animal. Cyclops, on the other hand, when he did bad things or took lives, it was because he believed that if he didn't, people would die. Given that he ended up being right most of those times, he has a point. Not to mention, this 'Don't be like me, I'm a bad person' BS is, again, incredibly hypocritical thinking. If you're such a bad person to be like, Logan, then why are you headmastering a school? If being 'like you' makes him such a bad fit for leader of the X-Men, why are YOU, of all people, the one currently doing that?

I know, its kinda pathetic to basically argue with a fictional character, but it really bugs me that we're supposed to agree with Logan here.

[psylynce]

I can't respond to everything you've written so I'll just write

THIS.

[auggie18]

"Let me be the one Jean was scared of."


...I don't remember Jean being scared of you. Most of the emotions I remember Jean having towards you pre-Inferno were indifference, annoyance, and vague respect. My knowledge of X-Men between Inferno and Grant Morrison's New X-Men is pretty weak, though. (Which is probably why I never got the Jean/Logan thing. If I recall correctly, he liked her and she...never really seemed to think about him much.)

[selke]

Sorry, all I can pay attention to is Logan's bandage on his cowl. ON HIS COWL.

[mrstatham]

It'd be useful if the X-writers could actually get a consistent opinion on whether the Phoenix-users were properly in control of their actions, given one of Bendis' plot elements is that, in some way, Scott did want to do that to Xavier, even if the Dark Phoenix truly did the deed.

[big_daddy_d]

I gotta be honest...yes I do still blame Scott. Same as I would blame Jean for her actions and others for their's. Sure the possession thing can usually lead to a pass but there is something about being the Phoenix. I don't know it's like it doesn't necessarily seem to control you. It gives you godlike power and increases your personality tenfold or rather gives you a...nudge. In a way it still seems to be you with that nudge, so.... yea that's how I feel about it. It's complicated I think.

[big_daddy_d]

Finally a damn conversation! That I actually enjoyed and found insightful.

[minervasolo]

Anyone else remember after Age of Apocalypse when Scott came back and everyone (including himself) was worried he was still tainted by merging with Apocalypse, and there were hints Apocalypse had affected his personality?

So that's my personal canon right there, and I'm sure any day now Marvel will pull off a super delayed pay off and reveal that Cyclops; mind has been a vessel for Apocalypse all this time, slowly warping his personality until we got to this point.

[xakko]

wasn't that Morrison's whole angle to break up Scott and Jean - that this "darkness" of Cyclopalypse had made him see true evil for the first time and he was unable to communicate with the woman he was psychically bonded to about it, and saw Emma instead?

because having been raised by a disguised Sinister (albeit in retcon), adopted by a super-powered criminal, and listening to who knows how many villain motive rants had left him naive

[md84]

In truth, the only thing I really hold against Scott during A vs. X was the way he blamed Captain America for "making" him kill Xavier. Then again I don't respect anyone who uses the "Why did you make me hit you?" argument unless they are being sarcastic.

[wizardru]

Each time I see Logan and Scott sitting down and talking like actual human beings, I know it must be Jason Aaron writing the scene. Schism actually, honestly worked in the mini-series, where you got the feeling that here were two very different men who had grown to respect each other over time and while they were very different people, they were brothers of a sort.

I see Aaron writing characters that grew out of the characters I knew in the 70s and 80s (interim canon be damned) I grew up with, who are more complicated, but have believable viewpoints. I think the idea that either character is objectively right is a false notion...they are just stating their views. I don't think either are right or wrong, but we understand what informs their actions and what led them to this point.

I'd like it if we could get past it, though.

[espanolbot]

I actually liked this conversation, as although Scott is accurate in saying he wasn't in control at the time... him saying that he doesn't have to accept responsibility for it comes across like a man who killed someone while DUI, and refusing to accept it was his fault due to being drunk at the time. Even if he wasn't actually competant at the time... a little guilt wouldn't exactly be amiss here.

Take another example of someone being forced to kill against their will: Cass Cain. She was pumped full of mindcontrol drugs and forced to kill people by Deathstroke and her father, but after that she didn't let the fact that she was kidnapped, drugged and made to kill multiple people get in the way that, well, she was still the one physically killing people.

A little guilt isn't a bad thing. Too much and the angst becomes boring, see Nightwing after Tarantula killed Blockbuster while Dick wasn't able to stop her due to having a nervous breakdown due to Desmond killing Dick's entire support cast, for example. No guilt, and it just makes you seem like a sociopath.

[ablackraptor]

Except, he does feel guilt, a lot of it. Not really shown here, but in the Uncanny Book, which focuses more on Scott's POV, its pretty clear he's seriously torn up about it. Hell, its established at multiple points that Cyclops now has a death wish over all this.

[flash_fan]

It seems some forget Scott was being an omega level asshole before and after his Phoenix possession. A lot of the Scott love seems to be fueled by Wolverine hate. I like this conversation because it shows Wolverine really isn't on a self-righteous 'holier than thou' type deal with Scott. Logan recognizes he's been a piece of shit, but now he's running a school and trying to do right. IMHO Wolverine's got the whole bodhisattva thing going on ever since he's gotten his memory back. Delaying a life of peace and happiness for himself so that others can have it. Scott has kind of gone from being the symbol that Xavier's dream can work to asshole with a hero complex.

[flint_marko]

No, Wolverine has been a self-righteous asshole for a while now.



I think the only reason he's being halfway tolerable here is because he's drunk.

[crabby_lioness]

Scott seems to be trying to work the denial, anger, and negotiation stages all at once. Ain't gonna work.