Demon Knights: Ystin versus Transphobic Demons

[espanolbot]

In the third arc of the sadly shortlived series Demon Knights, Etrigan killed his compatriots out of frustration. This sent them all to Hell, regardless of their religious beliefs (such as the Muslim al Jabr or Amazon Exoristos), immortality (Ystin, Xanadu, Vandal Savage) or the fact that they were actually good people (all except Savage arguably), due to Etrigan's powers in the DCnU involve being able to send good people to Hell... 'Cause he's a dick.

Least ways, while the rest of the team is stuck in a variety of ironic punishments or scenarios to trick them into staying in Hell, it falls to Ystin to rescue his friends.




Oddly you'd think that this would give him immunity to vampire too, but evidently not judging from the last storyline (he has a greater resistance to it, but not an out and out immunity).

Comments

[drtechnobabel]

"So, what kind of punishment should we make for the last member of the team? I was thinking something having to do with besmirching his knight-hood. You know, like a sadistic choice or something. Honor vs. Duty sort of thing..."

"Oh, you're talking about the sexually-ambiguous one, right? Because I have a great idea! We'll force him to choose a gender by hosting a mock wedding and having them choose to be the Bride or Groom!"

"Ok, a little narrow-minded, but that could work. So do we strap him to the wheel of rein carnation and tell him he has to choose to get off, to symbolize the constant turmoil of having to define oneself by gender? Maybe dress him in some weird mish-mash of a tuxedo and wedding dress as well? Or even better, what if we can have him constantly changing between a man and a woman in a physically agonizing-"

"Naw man, we should just dress ourselves up like a bride and groom, then have Yargaleth dress up as a priest and lick him like a child molester or something. Way easier."

"Um, ok, I get the priest part, but where'd this child molester thing come from? I don't think he was ever-"

"Trust me, it'll be hilarious! And we can invite all the guys over to watch him cry!"

"Wait, that's it? That sounds... really juvenile. But you know what? It's been a long day, so fine, we'll do it your way. But shouldn't we at least take his weapons first?"

"Aww, like that pansy will actually put up a fight."

[espanolbot]

Thing is, I think that Etrigan was actually the one who came up with this, on the basis that he picked things he knew would bug/tempt his companions based on things he noticed about them on their travels. And the best he could come up with for the furiously devote Grail knight is something that mock him for his biological gender not being the gender identity he'd chosen to identify as... for the past nine thousand years.

[drtechnobabel]

Even if that is the case though (which considering you know this run better than I do, is probably true), the point I was trying to make still stands, in that how he chose to do it is incredibly lazy. I mean, if you're going to torture someone for eternity, at least put some actual effort and creativity into it.

[philippos42]

Etrigan probably doesn't really care that much about successfully tormenting souls for any great length of time, or may even be somewhat against it.

He was pretty self-involved in the previous DCU.

[arbre_rieur]

Plus, he's her teammate, so he might have a grudging soft spot for her.

He even claims later in the arc that he knew she and the Demon Knights would escape Hell, and that he was counting on it because it was all part of some chessmaster scheme on his part to pull one over on Lucifer. But it's deliberately kept ambiguous whether he's lying or not when he says that.

[arbre_rieur]

Er, what do you think's going to happen *after* the ceremony? "Either promises quite a wedding night."

[drtechnobabel]

"Ok, ok, ok... so your plan to torment the prisoner relies on him being confused enough about his sexual identity that he won't choose either of us and break down crying. But what if it isn't a problem for him and he does choose one of us?"

"Well my friend, then we'll just have to take one for the team."

"...What."

"Yeah, every plan like this has a little risk involved. If he chooses one of us, demon law states that we HAVE to marry him and fulfill our 'spousal duties', if you know what I mean."

"...I don't think that constitutes a LITTLE risk."

"Oh, quit whining. It's not like you're marrying the Many-Armed Horror of R'lyeh or anything. It's just an immortal and very attractive human."

"I don't think I'm comfortable participating in this- wait, did you just call him 'attractive'?"

"Uh... oh look, he's almost here! Quick, put on this price outfit! I need to get my wedding dress and fake tits back from Samael!"

[shadur]

... Etrigan not being able to think of something incisive, clever, devious and evocative of an extensive understanding of his subject strikes me as in violation of a few laws of nature...

[michaelhealy]

The wheel of rein carnation is in the other hell. ^-^

[icon_uk]

They have an exchange scheme going...

[drtechnobabel]

I know :). I just REALLY like the wheel and everything it stands for.

[zapbiffpow]

Wait...wasn't Ystin female?

[burkeonthesly]

Biologically. But she identified as male (or possibly both). It made the relationship with Exoristos (the exiled Amazon) difficult.

[skemono]

Nope.

[zapbiffpow]

Ohhh....I was confusing her for the Shining Knight from Seven Soldiers.

Was this an effect of the Flashpoint ripple, or is this a different character?

[thatnickguy]

Different character. Similar but still new character for the 52 reboot.

[zapbiffpow]

Got it. Thanks!

[espanolbot]

DK combined elements from various different versions of the characters and adds some new bits as well. Vandal Savage, for example, is less the cunning schemer he is in most stories, and more like a Brian Blessed impersonator rolling around post-Roman Europe looking for things to keep him amused.

Madame Xanadu, meanwhile, has bits from the Matt Wagner Vertigo series (she's Nimue from Arthurian legend, and a Fey), but here she was Merlin's Greatest Student(tm) rather than vice versa.

While with Shining Knight, Ystin is a Celt from a proto-Camelot, and there have been dozens in the past (he's from the earliest one) like in Seven Soldiers. But while Grant Morrison's work had Ystin as a woman pretending to be male so she could be a knight, Cornell's version is a transman... who everyone is just assuming is pretending to be male so she'd be allowed to be a knight.

Morrison's Ystin is a straight woman pretending to be a man who is in love with another of the knights (Gawain, I think it was), Cornell's is a straight man... who happens to be biologically female. The fact that Ystin has a male self-image caused some friction with their girlfriend Exorcistos (who like most Amazons is into women), but they patched things up by the end of the series.

[espanolbot]

He's a straight male who happens to be biologically female.

Not sure what caused people to immediately leap to the idea he's intersex.

[kurenai_tenka]

Probably the part where he said he was 'both', and Cornell saying they were both legitimate readings.

[shadowpsykie]

i miss this series SOOO hard

[big_daddy_d]

Telling me. I wanted to learn more about Horsewoman.. still suspect she's an ancestor to Roy Harper.

[espanolbot]

Well they did confirm that she's proto-Animal Man, got a connection to the Red and everything. Her being Roy's ancestor would be a bit weird, considering it was canon before that he's also one of Vandal Savage's many, many descendants.

[big_daddy_d]

Considering the number of years between Demon Knights and modern DC, it is not impossible for her and Savage's bloodlines to mix along the way.

[kurenai_tenka]

Ah, not a day goes by that I don't miss this comic. Siiiiigh

[tugrul]

I don't take much liking to stories where good people can be sent to hell or heaven is threatened by evil.

The thought of good people being stuck in hell for eternity should nobody know of their whereabouts or be able to come to their rescue, that's just weird to me.

And how can heaven be defenseless against bad forces? Shouldn't the powers that be, yanno, BE there?

I don't really mind when the story is really good and I know things will be set right and that was perhaps God's or whoever is in charge's foresight all along, otherwise management is very sloppy.

I really digged the Ghost Rider vs. Zadkiel run. The art was great, the stories sooooo great. ^_^

Also, loved the Hellraiser series, even though there were times I thought were weird, like a father escaping from torture in hell and the demon that was sent to retrieve him found him and also intended to take his infant child to hell make up for the trouble of having to come after him. Babies should have inviolability. :3

No others come to mind.

[md84]

Stories like this usually take place in settings where the forces of heaven really don't give a crap about puny mortals, ie Hellblazer and Supernatural. The message seems to be that life isn't fair, and neither is death. Good people can go to hell, bad people can sneak into heaven, and it makes no real difference since angels and demons both look down on humans.

And in the DC verse, the Powers that Be aren't actually in heaven (pre-reboot, a rebellious angel stormed the throneroom of heaven intent on killing God only to find an empty room), they are everywhere and everything. Invading heaven wouldn't be any threat to them.

[espanolbot]

To be fair, even the preboot DCU had something similar going on. In the Reign in Hell mini-series, for some reason they had decided that ALL characters in the DCU that use magic (hero or villain) are destined to end up in evil, because someone randomly decided that all uses of magic are EVViiiiiLLLLL!

Which I think is a touch stupid, as that list seemed to include everyone from Dr Occult (supernatural PI with a secondary female personality that was somehow killed and sent to Hell), to Black Alice to Zatanna and her dad.

The series also brought in the idea that souls can be permanently destroyed in Hell (Lobo nearly ends up doublekilling Zatanna's dad, though that's reconned in her later solo series), and that (apparently) the Big Secret of Hell is that people are only there because they think that they should be. A revelation that causes one character to have a nervous breakdown, as she'd been running a resistance movement in Hell for years without realising that she could have just walked out of there ages ago if she wanted.

The idea that you only end up in Hell out of a subconscious desire for punishment is something that has turned up in numerous other sources before (John Constantine's sister chose to stay in Hell due to the love she had for her husband... who was a fundementalist Christian that murdered her before committing suicide, for example). Demon Knights' interpretation that it's possible for innocent, good people to be sent there seemed to come out of left field...

Though it does sit well with the series' motif of Etrigan being a DICK.

[icon_uk]

The "people are only there because they think that they should be" had been a plot point long before in the Sandman series, discussed when Lucifer closes Hell.

[philippos42]

Phil Foglio followed on that interpretation in his Stanley and His Monster run, as you know.

The angels running things after Lucifer quits see Hell as really a kind of very long-term Purgatory/rehab. The demons themselves don't actually accept that yet. Pretty funny.

[q99]

I liked how Hell was only *as bad* as someone felt too. So to a kid in hell, the demons were actually quite nice by most standards.