Emma Frost, Villain or Victim?

[katefan]

Um, ver. 2.0

First of all, I deleted the last post not because of an insistence from the moderator, but because I was not going to be able to edit my post in a timely manner and I felt it wrong to leave it cluttering the place up for twelve hours. Icon_UK was very nice in giving me some pointers on how to post properly. Thanks for everyone who responded.





So most know the White Queen's story. She started out as a member of the Hellfire Club, then her students, the Hellions died and this opened the door to her becoming an ally of Xavier's, ultimately with her and Banshee heading up the school in the pages of Generation X. Then later she became a full time X-Man.

I don't have any problem with any of this; the hero becoming a good guy is a common theme in X-Men. Magneto, Rogue, Sabertooth, each with varying levels of success. But what bothers me where Emma is concerned is the apparent retconning going on to make Emma less villainous. Like this one page from New X-Men Annual #1:




Or this other page (source unknown)




So, Emma was a drug using alcoholic all those times and she was under Shaw's control? She was not evil, she was just manipulated? And then it was revealed she was an exotic dancer at the Hellfire Club first. How does an exotic dancer become head of a blue blood private school?

She left home based on principle to defy her jerk or a father, with just $400 dollars in her pocket. So now we're supposed to admire her pluck and spirit? What was wrong with her just being an elitist who thought she was better than you due to social breeding and genetics?

Anyway, if you guys could she some light on any other retcons or elaborate on the ones I mentioned, I would greatly appreciate it.

Comments

Mod Note!

[icon_uk]

Oh dear, hate to do this to you (and after youw ere so nice about me), but whilst it's great to see this back, could I ask you to either put the first image behind the cut, or reduce it's size, so it's no more than the 300x400 maximum size that is permitted outside the cut, as mention in Section 8 of the Posting guidelines

Thanks!

Re: Mod Note!

[katefan]

Not a problem, man. If I break the rules then I deserve to be spanked. :)

Re: Mod Note!

[shadowpsykie]

oooh you just left a very loaded comment on here.... lol

[grazzt]

Actually, I think her story reenforces her elitism. She went from everything to nothing back to everything again. Obviously it's because she's a superior person. As for the school thing, again the Frost name probably meant more than her actual past, at least to the snobs.

[flint_marko]

I wouldn't take Emma at her word in either of those cases.

Shaw's no saint, but when we actually saw them together in Claremont's first run he was always show to care about her. And the second example is from Generation Hope, where everyone was acting like Shaw was responsible for corrupting Jean into the Black Queen when it was really Mastermind and Emma.

[katefan]

Well I agree with you in regards to Shaw, which is why I think Emma's statements are retcons. I recently came across this picture and it seems to reinforce the idea that now rather than the pair having an equal partnership Emma seems more like the abused woman in fear of defying a man with so much power over her.

http://tstockel.50webs.com/white_queen03.jpg

[grazzt]

I don't see it. If Shaw is assaulting her physically, she did just try and tamper with him mentally. Not to say that it isn't an abusive relationship, just one in which the abuse is coming from both parties.

[flint_marko]

I just read the issue that scene was from (X-Men Origins: Emma Frost), and IMO it was pretty crappy; it basically tries retelling the origin given in Grant Morrison's run and her ongoing series, but does a sloppy job.

That being said, that scene happened before they became a couple; she was just working at the Hellfire club and he felt her going through his mind (there's also the implication that he did it to get her to unleash her full power at him so he could see how powerful she was).

[katefan]

Thanks, I was wondering what that was from.

[tugrul]

I really, really like the tragic backstory from Deadly Genesis where it appears that Emma got on the Hellfire Club's radar when Xavier and Moira tried recruiting her there but Xavier ultimately decided she wasn't worth the trouble. If he had, she would've ended up being sent to Krakoa and her existence would've been erased from memory soon after.

EDIT: Or perhaps her presence during the Krakoa mission would've made all the difference and they would've been able to save the O5 and escape with their lives. ;)

I wonder whether she knows now, since Layla Miller gave heroes their memories back during House of M, but perhaps Layla only reminded them of the true reality while Wolverine got ALL of his memories back because that was an explicit wish of his that the Scarlet Witch's magic granted.

I liked it when she helps Xavier move on with his life in X-Men: Manifest Destiny, but first she made him relive all of his mistakes and morally ambiguous decisions made under altruistic pretenses, but their first encounter wasn't mentioned then either.

Perhaps she will remember in Original Sin, but I doubt it.

Did Xavier reach out to her to teach Generation X with Bansee after they defeat the Phalanx or did that happen differently? Or to teach on Genosha? Or teach at Xavier's again after she was saved in Genosha? I should re-read a lot of her stories. :3

When Xavier was going around amending relationships with X-Men, like Beast and Rogue, in X-Men: Legacy, I wished he'd amend things with Emma as well.

Yeah, I'm dismissing the booze and drugs, but I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that Selene's dark magic had a corrupting influence on her.

[icon_uk]

Not sure how much counts as a retcon when things hadn't been very fleshed out in the first place. In some cases it's less a retcon and more "expanding backstory", but I appreciate there's a lot of fuzziness about the difference at times.

When she debuted she was an unmitigated, sadistic, power-hungry, Hellfire Club leader who enjoyed inflicting pain, and was essential to Masterminds plan to corrupt Phoenix, since the mind-tap thingie that they used was based on designs that IIRC Emma had read from other people's minds... (could be wrong about that part, but she was essential to the plan).

After some mind swap shenangians with Storm she was expanded on when the Hellions showed up in New Mutants, when her being the headmistress of the prestigious and respected Massachussett's Academy (which Kitty would have gone to if Phoenix hadn't rewritten Mr and Mrs Pryde's memories (Which Xavier objected to, but did not reverse) and which we later found out Janet Van Dyne nearly went to because she was "Old money" too).

Again, she was shown as being power-hungry and whilst she valued their usefulness, she would have sacrificed any of the Hellions to further her ends. See also her manipulative and fairly evil treatment of Angelica "Firestar" Jones, who she was training to be a disposable assassin who would kill Selene for her.

It wasn't, I would say, until the writers deliberately decided to reform her after the death of the Hellions (BOOO!!! HISSS!! Crap idea then, crap idea now) and her being in a coma because of Fitzroy, that they introduced the notion that she had been genuinely fond of them and used that as an emotional tipping point.

She she took over Generation X and I sort of lost touch with it (Never quite warmed to it the way I wanted to)

Warren Ellis mentioned, when he took over the Generation X title, that he felt Emma had become a shadow of her former self, she was getting close to being a warm and cuddly den-mother type, and that missed the point of her in his opinion, so made her a more arch again, and then Morrison took that and ran further with it.

Not sure when all her family were introduced, she never mentioned them during the Claremont stories I recall, so can't really comment.

[flint_marko]

How was she portrayed as being willing to sacrifice the hellions?

[icon_uk]

Her attitude towards Empath in particular. She notes that with his character traits he was the most likely candidate of the Hellions to graduate to the Inner Circle, but that she may well have to kill him before that point because of those very traits, and seemed quite sanguine about that.

Recruiting Firestar as a disposable assassin also suggests a rather utilitatiran approach to her students lives.

[q99]

I prefer it that she did chose to go the evil route, and she did at the time enjoy it, but ultimately found it hollow and grew past that.

[leoboiko]

Especially because then she'd be able to talk about the past villainy without victimizing herself, which would be much more fitting for the character.

[q99]

Exactly.

"I wasn't forced into it or anything, there's a million things I could've done, but I went for power and control. People do that without being forced into it."

[icon_uk]

True, though she would also be excusing herself for the jail time she should face for the deaths she caused and crimes she committed.

Amongst others, there was the rather tacky one-off story where she and Selene made a bet as to who could bed an attractive Hellfire Club guard first without using their powers, which of course they both did, until the poor guy's head explodes as a result of his brain being messed with by both of them. Then both of them have a good laugh and clink their champagne glasses before moving on to the next topic.

[silicondream]

I'm pretty sure the first quote is just Emma sarcastically shrugging off Scott's disapproval, by invoking the standard celebrity/politician's excuse for bad behavior. "I was drunk and high and crazy, so I can't remember what I did but it wasn't really my fault, whatever it was."

This scene was part of her escalating flirtation with him; she knew he was having marital troubles and he was dissatisfied with his life. This is naughty Emma teasing straight-laced Scott. She's not seriously trying to excuse her past misdeeds; she's declaring that she doesn't need to excuse them, because she's all exciting and dangerous and guilt-free like that.

Ret-Con or Con Game?

[7dialsmystery]

She's playing a Long Con on everyone. The Hellfire club is no longer of any use to her so she moved onto another super-powered organization. When she's through playing the X-Men like a fiddle, she'll gather up the useful students and move on. Maybe she'll start her own Super Villainess Club.

Re: Ret-Con or Con Game?

[lilacsigil]

I like this theory, though I don't think it's so much a con as a journey! It's not like she is actually nice to the X-Men or tries to win their sympathy. I do think she genuinely cares about her students but that doesn't mean she'll put them before herself.

[q99]

What's the old saying? 'Die a villain, or live long enough to see yourself become a hero'?