INFINITE CRISIS: How dare you not like Identity Crisis?!

[starwolf_oakley]

Some have said INFINITE CRISIS was at least partially about DC Comics yelling at fans who did not like IDENTITY CRISIS. A few pages back this up.



INFINITE CRISIS #2, Power Girl re-united with the Golden Age Superman.






Superboy Prime goes on quite a bit about how terrible the current Earth is, and the "heroes" are even worse.

INFINITE CRISIS #5, Wonder Woman interrupts a fight between Superman and the Golden Age Superman on a recreated Earth 2.



And that's it. That's all is needed for Kal-L to realize he was wrong, and they quickly discover that Alexander Prime and Superboy Prime are the bad guys here.

For a fan who says he has problems with IDENTITY CRISIS, I sure talk about a lot. I think the Alex Ross JUSTICE series was partially about Ross voicing his dislike of IDENTITY CRISIS in an interesting story.

Comments

[flint_marko]

[q99]

One of the problems with comics at the time- DC didn't do permanent reformation. Or lasting containment. And they kept making the villains worse.

So... unlike in real life, where you *can* reform people, and contain them, and remove their ability to threaten others, Diana kinda has a point. In comics, once villains reach a certain level, they pretty much keep going til they die, or if they're too prominent to die, just never stop.

Even though Infinite Crisis was, to an extent, *about* this very conflict, that's what caused the rift in the three, it didn't really answer that. At the end, they came back together, were willing to work together against despite the rift, and Diana was still willing to kill in some circumstances, and the others weren't.

[starwolf_oakley]

Clark, Diana and Bruce were mad at each other, and then stopped being mad because the story was almost over.

[q99]

Pretty much. Thematically shallow. I bought it at the time because things had been more focused on other matters, but considering that the follow-ups didn't really do anything with 'em, especially WW (she went to a hidden city for awhile, then had a crappy 'Who Is Wonder Woman?' story that didn't address it, no development resulted).

If a writer brings up a question as a key in a story, they should be prepared for an answer.

[cainofdreaming]

It's not like death really works as containment either. Dead characters pop up, sometimes faster than those who are simply incarcerated, all the time. So arguing death over containment based on that doesn't really work in a comics universe.

[night4345]

It's not like death really works as containment either.
Funnily enough Doctor Light has died several times.

[q99]

True enough. But you're more likely to get at least a temporary reprieve. And if a successor takes the mantel, often longer still.


This Dr. Light's last showing in the pre-reboot universe was.... the Spectre killing him.

[md84]

By turning him into a candle, which was awesome.

Technically, his last appearance was as a Black Lantern who was quickly vaporized by the heroic female Dr. Light.

[thezmage]

I've always wanted to see someone use the arguement "if I put him in Arkham, I'll have some way of knowing when the Joker gets out. If I kill him, then I won't know when or how he comes back to life, maybe even more dangerous than he is now"

[md84]

He sort of uses that argument at the end of Death of the Family. He tells Alfred that if he killed the Joker, he's certain that Gotham would just find some way to bring him back or send something even worse. Yes, Batman really believes that Gotham City itself is his true opponent.

[kd_the_movie]

Diana for president. For life.

[md84]

Too bad she wasn't born in the United States, making that an impossibility in the DC verse.

[mistervader]

Eh, it worked for Obama.

(Yes, I'm just being facetious.)

[starwolf_oakley]

As much as I liked that story, I never quite got how Superman knew what Mindwipe Inc had done to Dr. Light but not to Batman. It edged close to "Because the plot said so" to quote Film Brain (from TGWTG.com).

[mrstatham]

No, don't bring up actually decent writing from Rucka regarding morality and whether or not heroes should actually kill, in response to said crappy story! Johns is clearly betterwith the argument of 'yeah, our planet sucks but so does yours because you exist'.

[sagrada]

"...you slay it."

But...Dr. Light ISN'T a monster. He's a man. A badly-damaged, despicable man, but a human being with all the rights and need for justice that Wondy herself enjoys. We gave Ted Bundy a (mostly) fair trial, and it was obvious that he was guilty as sin and had done more evil in his time than Light's managed in all his published appearances. And Ted was killed by the state because he showed that despite the demented nature of his mind he was still aware that what he was doing was wrong, and had done it anyway.

If Dr. Light is somehow not human because of his mindset, then caging him(and don't say it can't be done, I shan't believe it when such a collection of powers and minds are together and bent to one purpose) is the only right thing to do. If something's wrong, if he's not human because something in him is broken, then they need to at least TRY to set it right again before killing him because it's inconvenient and unappealing not to.

It's not even like he's some staggering mastermind, before he got ruined for Identity Crisis he was the workadayest of workaday supercrooks. He's not like the Joker, where slackjawed stupidity forces him to escape time after time because nobody can think up a better bad guy to diametrically oppose Batman, he's just a dude with light powers.

If he really is clear-headed and just doing his hideousness because he's decided he shouldn't care who he hurts, then maybe the argument to murder him might hold some water, otherwise it's just more dull-ass posturing from characters who need as little of that as possible.

[janegray]

And this is why Diana is my favourite.

[drtechnobabel]

If you're from this Earth it can't be perfect. Because a perfect world doesn't need a Superman

You know, for all the talk about Infinite Crisis being them reacting to fans who didn't like the post-Crisis continuity, that line right there, and Kal-L's reaction to it, is an incredibly powerful moment. Kudos to the writer and artist on that one.

[q99]

-And that's it. That's all is needed for Kal-L to realize he was wrong,-

Sorta a fallacy of an excluded middle, isn't it?

"We may have mind-wiping, but you're not completely supervillain free!".

Infinite Crisis was kinda so-so as events go. Not as bad as Identity Crisis, but increasingly I find it barely brought-up in conversation. People'll talk 52 but kinda skip over what lead to it.

[glprime]

I enjoyed the side-events more than the main, TBH. The end of the Fourth Age of Magic, the Rann-Thanagar War, Checkmate's games against Brother Eye, and all the great stuff with the Secret Six (and various other anti-villains) who aren't necessarily down with joining up with the Society.

[q99]

Oh yes, good point, the side events were *awesome!* Rann-Thanagar was the weakest, but even that was good.

Days of Vengeance was a truly epic set of events, as the proto-shadowpact pulled out all the stops... way more impact than the main thing.

And Villains United, well, that's the one that started it's own series!

[sagrada]

Not quite, more that Kal-L was SO determined to see his world as perfect, as infinitely more deserving of re-creation than the main DC Earth, that even suggesting that it was flawed enough to legitimately need superheroes(ignoring that the mundane world was in enough trouble for a Superman, once) is crippling. His ideal is cracked, impure, and if it's impure than his mission is as pointless as it is unjust. His world's no better than the one he's demonized, so it doesn't justify his plan. It'd be like if you were a secret agent for some country, were totally devoted to the image of it as an awesome place, and then learned that it was no better than the country you'd spent years sabotaging a d spying your merry way across. Undercuts your whole worldview, like it did for Kal-L.

[md84]

It also makes him realize that Alex played him and Lois for fools, and Lois died as a result.

[q99]

Yea, his world is far from perfect, but at the same time, that doesn't necessarily make it 'no better.' No mindwipes-by-'heroes', fewer cities wiped out by supervillains, fewer slaughter-spree type villains....


Does it justify him? Arguably not, but "also has problems" doesn't mean all problems are equal.

[md84]

I think the implication was that even though Kal-L's universe didn't have the exact same problems as Earth-One, it still had problems severe enough that they merited a Superman and superheroes in general to handle them.

[sagrada]

That's sense, and I agree. But this IS a Superman, after all, and he openly refers to his home world as 'perfect'. In order to make his quest seem even kind of okay, in order to justify screwing over all the people in the world by reshuffling them into a universe he happens to prefer, that new world's got to be a sparkling gem of virtue and peace. Otherwise, to Kal-L, he's just exchanging peoples' current problems for ones he happens to be more comfortable with.

It's weird, kinda foolish thinking, but at least it's an ethos. And only a Supes deals in such absolutes!

[q99]

Yea, really the failing of Kal-L here is sacrificing so many to accomplish his goals is just not what Superman does.

[bruinsfan]

I took it that he already knew he was wrong and just wasn't accepting it due to his grief over Lois until the current Superman snapped him back to his senses.

[thezmage]

Well, I know I still want to talk about how much I hated Identity Crisis because I think it's a perfect example of how bad writing and abhorrent views go hand in hand. Meltzer's inability to write really does go hand in hand with his inability to think of women as anything other than extensions or tools of the men in their life. Even Wonder Woman wasn't allowed to be anything other than what the men needed.

[md84]

Note also that none of Identity Crisis' viewpoint characters are women.

[halloweenjack]

John Rogers' take on IC (also Avengers: Disassembled) is still pertinent.

[alschroeder3]

My biggest problem with Identity Crisis wasn't the magical lobotomies. There are plenty of examples in say, Gardner Fox's JLA, where the JLA made the entire world forget their IDs being revealed. (The one where the JLA became Super-Exiles in Space, for instance.) I had a much BIGGER problem with what happened to Sue Digby at the hands of Dr. Light, but given Light's vendetta against all the JLA members, individually or together, and given that Ralph was one of the few ones who had a public identity, if you start to think "realistically" I suppose an attack like that was going to happen sooner or later (but realistic/schmealistic, I HATED seeing that happen to a character who had always been delightful). But my BIGGEST problem was Jean Loring as the Big Bad. Considering that she originally turned down numerous proposals from Ray Palmer in Gardner Fox's original run on the Atom---and later, under that awful Gil Kane Atom-as-Conan thing--Power of the Atom?-- it was revealed that she cheated on HIM after their marriage, and divorced HIM ---making her a crazy person obsessed with KEEPING Ray didn't make any sense to me.

[md84]

The justification (and I use the term loosely) for Jean's about-face was that she had a nervous breakdown at some point, during which she remembered all of the good times she had with Ray and forgot the reasons she left him in the first place. Then she became obsessed with the "good old days".

[alschroeder3]

Well, she DID have a mental breakdown before, back in the late sixties. So there was a little bit of history there, where Jean thought she was "Queen Jean".

[starwolf_oakley]

And keep in mind, Jean didn't want to get back together with Ray: she wanted RAY to get back together with HER. She wanted it to be Ray's "idea" they get back together. And I never quite bought Jean's "I didn't mean to kill Sue" story. "Gosh, Sue was mysteriously knocked unconscious. I think I'll get back together with Jean."

[md84]

The "I didn't mean to kill Sue" idea holds even less weight considering she packed a friggin' flamethrower. What, was she planning to toast some marshmallows after tap-dancing on Sue's brain?

[mrstatham]

I keep on saying that Identity Crisis' story makes WAY more sense with Ray Palmer as Sue's killer than Jean. Literally nearly everything in that story makes more sense with that in mind, and - given Meltzer's terrible use of female characters, from throwing Zatanna and Jean under the bus to the disgusting shit with Sue (what did the character EVER do to Meltzer to deserve that?) - it just reads like DC didn't want to make one of their oh-so-special Silver Age characters out to be a murderer, and substituted Jean for Ray.

Think about it. That JLA forensics scene? With Ray conveniently checking the carpet fibres? Who's more likely to know a way to get around JLA-installed security? The divorced lawyer or the superhero still on call with the team? Who would have easier access to the Atom technology? A flamethrower? Everything makes more sense with Ray Palmer as the killer who murdered the wife of one of his best friends in order to make it look good when he was looking out for his ex-wife.

[silicondream]

Kal-L, your position is stupid. You can't decide your Earth was "perfect" just because your Batman didn't accidentally make an army of killer robots. It still had, like, pain and death and villains and shit. Plus, what's all this "Earth" business anyway? Your entire universe died, and it's ridiculous to judge a universe's worth by whether a single planet is overseen by a competent Justice League.

New Earth Supes, your position is also stupid. Kal-L isn't claiming that his Earth was always perfect since the beginning of time, just that it was perfected by him and his fellow heroes. Responding with, "Well, if your Earth was so perfect it wouldn't need a Superman in the first place," spectacularly misses his point. He's saying that Superman should help his Earth become a paradise, and you haven't done that.

Wonder Woman, you're standing around looking grumpy and awkward and embarrassed, and that makes perfect sense. Carry on.

[q99]

This :)

[md84]

'You can't decide your Earth was "perfect" just because your Batman didn't accidentally make an army of killer robots.'

Especially because it wasn't really Batman's fault in the first place. Yeah he built Brother Eye, but the killer robot invasion was Alex's fault. In fact, a lot of the problems (but not all) with Earth-One that Alex showed Kal-L to convince him to help were actually Alex's fault.

'New Earth Supes, your position is also stupid. Kal-L isn't claiming that his Earth was always perfect since the beginning of time, just that it was perfected by him and his fellow heroes. Responding with, "Well, if your Earth was so perfect it wouldn't need a Superman in the first place," spectacularly misses his point. He's saying that Superman should help his Earth become a paradise, and you haven't done that.'

I think the idea is that Kal-L is claiming that he had already made Earth-2 a paradise before it was erased. Kal-El's response made Kal-L realize that no, even at the very end it still wasn't perfect. The way he just stumbles and mutters in shock makes me think that he spent those few seconds remembering everything that was wrong with his Earth, problems that he forgot due to nostalgia.

[silicondream]

I think the idea is that Kal-L is claiming that he had already made Earth-2 a paradise before it was erased. Kal-El's response made Kal-L realize that no, even at the very end it still wasn't perfect. The way he just stumbles and mutters in shock makes me think that he spent those few seconds remembering everything that was wrong with his Earth, problems that he forgot due to nostalgia.

I think that's what's supposed to have happened too, but it doesn't logically follow from Kal-El's response. If Kal-L starts out believing that he managed to make Earth-2 perfect, why would he change his mind because Earth-2 "doesn't need a Superman?" Obviously it does need a Superman, from his PoV, because Superman was the vital factor in making it perfect! Was he supposed to exile himself or commit suicide once his job was done?

So it kind of reads like Kal-El makes an irrelevant observation while, unconnectedly, Kal-L suddenly realizes that he's been blackout drunk on Krypto-booze for the last few issues and suffering from selective Super-amnesia.

[night4345]

It still had, like, pain and death and villains and shit.
Seriously does Kal-L remember Per Degaton took over the world, the Psycho Pirate made Bruce Wayne hunt down the JSA, a out of practice Batman kicked a thug's gun causing the bullet to hit and kill Selina Wayne, The Injustice Society terrorized the US with an army of escaped convicts, Brain Wave Sr. causes several disasters around the world and tried to send the earth into the sun, and Cary Bates made the JLA kill the JSA. The Pre-Crisis multiverse was very clearly not perfect even at the end and I'm not sure why Kal-L would think otherwise (other than he's a strawman just like Superboy-Prime).

[lorriek]

Identity Crisis was bad because of the retroactive rape and fridging of Sue Digby. I was okay with a rapist being given a lobotomy, because, hey, rapist. I didn't care enough about the story to remember anything else about it.