Batman:Hush - Batman vs. Superman

[panelsarewindows]

(Despite starting with Batman #611, this cover is from #612, since it kinda fits the theme more)

I have conflicting feelings towards Hush. I enjoy reading it, but not thinking about it. The story isn't very good, but I think he characters are well written. The art sticks to very stereotypical body shapes, where everyone kinda looks the same, but it's Jim Lee, so it's gorgeous art. Hush himself WOULD have been an interesting villain, if his 'reveal' wasn't so obvious (but also very confusing). It reminds me a lot of Jeph Loeb's other big Batman work 'The Long Halloween', where the characters and set-up are pretty good, but the resulting story and payoff... aren't.

Anyway, after seeing the new Batman vs. Superman teaser (which, IMO, looks pretty lame), I though about this confrontation which happened in the middle of the Hush story-arc (issues #611 and #612). I think these two work best together in a story when they begrudgingly work together rather than out-right fight, but I do think it's one of the better done fights between them.

(BTW, this is my first time posting, so although I've tried to follow the rules and get everything right, I apologise if the scans are hard to read, or I've done anything wrong. If you have any tips on how I can do better, please say in the comments. Thanks! On with the show)

Context: Poison Ivy used Catwoman to steal some ransom money, so Batman decides to follow her to Metropolis. Catwoman comes with him (pretty upset about the whole mind control thing).

#611...



Bruce's old-best-friend-who-we've-never-seen-before, Tommy Elliot, 'mysteriously' shows up, we get a little flashback to the first time Bruce came to Metropolis, and Bruce decides to swing by the Daily planet.






Catwoman and Batman track down Poison Ivy, who realises Catwoman is no longer under her control. She fights off Catwoman, but she is rescued by Batman. Ivy says The kitten brought a champion. Good. I've brought mine, too.




#612...

Most of this issue is the fight between the two (which I think is cool, since the first issue was them as their secret identities). Superman blasts at them, but Batman and Catwoman manage to escape. Ivy is pretty upset at this.




Batman and Catwoman escape into the tunnels, where he gathers his anti-Superman defense kit (complete with kryptonite ring). Catwoman leaves to get a hostage as Superman catches up to them, wishing Bruce good luck.




They fight in the tunnels for a bit, Batman saying how Superman can't use heat vision, or he'll explode a gas main under the Daily Planet (although he later reveal he lied about that). What I like about this fight is how relentless Batman is against Superman, since he knows if he lets up, even for a second, he's doomed. Batman manages to get Superman to punch into the city grid, stunning him, while he gets to the surface.




Catwoman has Lois hostage at the top of the Daily Planet. She falls off, but Superman overrides the mind control, and catches her. They manage to track Poison Ivy down, leading to possibly my favourite reveal ever.






So that's that. What I really like about his fight is, despite Batman having the upper hand for most of it, the comic really emphasises how powerful Superman is, and how much he's holding back. It shows the respect Batman has for Superman, and vice-versa. Ultimately, Batman doesn't 'win' because he's cooler, or was more prepared or whatever, but because of how good Superman is, and how he will always do the right thing.

I'm not sure that's how it's gonna be in the film.

Comments

[beoweasel]

Anyway, after seeing the new Batman vs. Superman teaser (which, IMO, looks pretty lame)

Glad I'm not the only one who wasn't impressed. Did anyone find it funny, that for most, if not all of the trailer, except for a brief instance of sunlight, and a few explosions, there were no bright colors? Everything was dark and rainy. To quote Mr. Regular from his Subaru Impreza Review: It was black and plastic, it was black and plastic, it was black and plastic AND EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND PLASTIC.

[lucean]

Of course you weren't the only not impressed, but that doesn't mean that somehow other people shouldn't like it.

Besides while it did have a lot of light in it, and not that much black and plastic unless we are talking about Batman's suit.

[icon_uk]

but that doesn't mean that somehow other people shouldn't like it.

I don't think there's anything in beoweasel's post to suggest they shouldn't.

[lucean]

Fair enough point after re-reading the initial comment. I've just run read so many of those comments that indicate everyone should hate that I read this comment with the same tone.

My mistake and apology.

[alicemacher]

I was underwhelmed too. But that's possibly because I've seen the "go home, alien superbeing" trope played out so many times. Not to mention the "ungrateful mob of normals" motif has always struck me as more of a Marvel thing than a DC thing.

[panelsarewindows]

Agreed. There was nothing actively bad in the trailer, it was just kinda bland. We know both Batman and Superman are in it. Why not tease us a bit of Lex, or new Metropolis, or something exciting.

I also don't like how their building up Superman as this big threat which only Batman can take down. I'm going to reserve judgement untill I see more, but so far, not great.

Although, one positive thing I can say is the new Batsuit looks really good. I'm not too sure about the armoured one, but the normal one looks pretty cool, so there's that.

[lucean]

First of all, Superman and Batman are the two central characters of the movie and your argument is that the trailer should not establish their role in the world or their central conflict, but ignore them?

Second, I didn't feel the trailer was building Superman as the big threat, rather it seems to establish that the world is struggling to figure out how to deal with him, which is a really realistic aspect if you think about how the world would react if someone like Superman really appeared.

[espanolbot]

*Thumbs up* From what I've been able to find out about the film (I've been following news and rumours since they started... 'cause of mah blorg), although the Superman in the films is closer to a "traditional" version of the character (the events of the last film making him both determined NOT to kill anyone else nor allow a disaster like the one in Metropolis to happen again), both people within the US and aboard are... concerned about Superman's presence, especially since he cut ties with the US military after Zod was defeated.

People in China and Russia are concerned about a god-like American flying around abroad (the teaser shows him going to Mexico and Russia, but according to news Lois becomes a correspondant in the Middle East... And Clark goes with her, 'cause they're an official couple at this point... So when Lois gets into trouble via her being awesome, Superman showing up to rescue her leads to... issues).

While in the US, even though Superman is hailed as a saviour for preventing Zod from exterminating the human race... People are basically reflecting the opinion of the audience of Man of Steel that Superman could have done MORE to save the presumably thousands who died as a result of the Metropolis terraforming machine (even though there were two machines, and only he could get the one in the Indian Ocean and back in time).

Lex Luthor, being a dude who grew up on the streets of Metropolis before making his billions in this version, naturally isn't too happy that Superman gets both praise and a statue for "not flattening ALL of the city, just most", while he (and Wayne Enterprises) where the people who rebuilt the city afterwards and provided relief work.

[lucean]

Yeah, and while I cannot in anyway know whetever or not they succeed in telling that story or not, I do feel it is an intriguing story to tell. How does the world feel about someone with powers of a god flying around without seeming to really be responsible anyone? It doesn't go from the comic book readers perspective, where we all already Superman is a good man, as the people in that world surely don't know that as a given.

I also feel it makes the fight with Batman actually fit in to thematic, as Batman is the pinnacle of humanity, the man who can face down gods, so it feels natural he would be the one who could face the newly arrived semi-divine being. Also, taking their relationship in the comics, that fight needs to happen at the beginning of their relationship.

[lucean]

But I forgot to mention I agree about the Batsuit. It looks a lot more like the armor of a soldier, which I feel they are going for with this iteration of
Batman.

[espanolbot]

They did tease Lex Luthor, he was one of the people talking about the effect of Superman (I think that he was the one saying how we used to think demons would come from beneath us, but now we know they'd come from the sky).

[supermanda]

It's kind of strange to me when people make these comments, because... well... what did you expect? Did you see Man of Steel? I thought by now it was pretty clear that these films were a darker take on the characters, even aesthetically. I can understand how people wouldn't like it, but I don't understand how anyone can still be disappointed over it. Not to be rude, or anything! I respect your angle.

Anyways, I thought it looked really good and I'm excited :3 but I am someone whose bar is way down low for live-action Superhero films, especially DC's. I don't take it the least bit seriously at all (I think this film takes itself seriously enough for the two of us lol), and I'm just in it for a good time! So meh.

[lucean]

I just wanted to echo in agreement with you, as this is one of the core things that makes discussing the film as it really often seems to go in to what people wanted it to be instead what it was. The latter I can discuss, the former I see no value in discussing.

This isn't to say that people should like these movies, just that critizing it for not being the movie it never claimed to be isn't really constructive.

[lucean]

To be a contrarian, I actually really liked the movie teaser, but really disliked the Hust confrontation. Probably partially because I really disliked the Hush storyline in general, but also because it just felt off to me with Loeb deciding to make Kryptonite apparently basically useless against Superman. Besides, Superman and Batman being equal members of the Trinity to me means that Batman should be able to beat Superman without it being Superman just being that swell of a guy.

My own favorite confrontation between the two is actually the most recent one by Snyder, as I felt it highlighted both Superman's power and Batman's ingenuity. It also has currently favorite response to which one should win with Batman pointing out that if the two of them ever fight, it means that both of them had already lost.

[sagrada]

I'm still confused about one thing. Which might just be because I have a terrible memory for Bat-stories. Spoilers below, if you CARE.

(((((So, in another part of the story Hush fights Batman. But it isn't Hush, as revealed it turns out to be just Jason Todd disguised under the wrappings of Hush for reasons that defy logic. But it isn't him, it's just a fake. Who knows that Jason Todd was Batman's sidekick, what he looked and sounded like, and how to fight to keep from getting free brain damage from a Flying Bat Elbow-Drop.
My question is: how???????????)))))

Also Bats vs. Supes is God-damned boring. Either it's a foregone conclusion, a waste of time or both.

[lucean]

Well the answer to your confusion is so simple that I am ashamed for you that you even have to ask. Spoilers below...

Jason Todd was Clayface, who was such a method actor that he was able to completely mimic Jason Todd's fighting style. Now I know that there are some purists who claim that Clayface had never been able to do anything remotely like that, what would you know?

I am actually confliced about that part of the story in Hush. First I hated it, because it was actually the better story reveal than what ended up being the real story reveal and I was momentarily giving Loeb credit for being actually clever. It helped that there had been an increased focus in the Batbooks on Jason and who he was around that time, so I thought it had been a really well organized reveal. However, Winick having read this storyline was actually inspired to bring back Todd as a villain and sold the editorial on the concept. The Under the Hood storyline was to me really awesome and managed to establish Jason Todd as a potentially major villain in the Batmythos with great motivation.

Unfortunately, at that moment the DC editorial lost in their nostalgic haze, my view of the matter, decided that they wanted Todd to actually be the good guy in Countdown for some bizarre reason. Then Daniels decided that Todd would be the evil contender for Batman's role in the Battle for the Cowl. Then Morrison built on that evil and what Todd represented in the Bat-mythology. Then the editorial again changed it's mind and seemed to make Todd a gun toting vigilante running around with his pals, with the end result being that now Todd is a D-lister who is the most useless member of the Bat-Clan instead of a major villain.

Todd's path after the resurrection has been so weird and it all started with Hush.

[sagrada]

Oh, it was Clayface all along using his shapeshifting powers and acting skills? Huh. I was convinced I'd forgotten some really intricate plan with body-doubles and altered memories shoved into the end of the fight. Thanks Lucean comrade, I do feel ashamed now! You're a real pal. :)

And agreed entirely on the bizarre path Jason's taken. I'm not sure if it's unheard of for hero-characters who die to come back as antagonists, but it was kind of neat that Jason was so radically changed by his death and resurrection, changed enough that he outright defied the philosophy held by often-infallible Batman. It was annoying that everyone was all "That Todd boy was a bad egg from the start!", and the fact that he came back to life to be a murderous vigilante is kind of unpleasant in a predestination kind of way given his background, but it fit. It made him distinct. Now he's just Gunbats and super-boring. Like Johnny Storm after he stopped being Susan's dick kid brother.

[lucean]

Yeah and the Todd direction is frustrating because they took something central to the Batmythology without giving anything in return.

Before resurrection Todd was a symbol of soldiers fallen in the war, a sign what the Batclan did required casualties. Then, when they brought him, they managed to make it about Batman having lost the battle for Jason's soul, showing that you can fall in the war more ways than one. Now, there's nothing. There's just angry Jason running around somewhere doing things that no one really cares about.

I was actually astonished when I saw that they are bringing the Red Hood comic back after Convergence as they have already cancelled titles that were selling a lot better than it is and/or had better critical reception. I guess they're being stubborn about their decision.

On Hush, Clayface's abilities were kind of awesome in it as he was also able to pose as the dead Tommy Elliot so well that it fooled the medical examiners at the scene, which is somewhat mind-blowing.

[mrstatham]

Except 'poor little angry Jason' running around pre-Flashpoint was going nowhere fast and his goal was never going to be achieved - they were even nudging him closer to being a hero under Bruce's watch anyway, as indicated by the fact that he took over Wingman's identity in Batman Inc.

Angry Badass!Jason wasn't going anywhere fast, though, and the characterisation was just bland. Bruce was never going to accept his demands and compromise himself morally, and Jason was never going to kill the Joker. It was just dull.

[skemono]

Actually, Clayface was imitating Nightwing's fighting style--it was one of the reasons Batman knew it wasn't really Jason back from the dead.

...but then Winick retconned that it was Jason back from the dead, for part of the fight, before he tagged out with Clayface posing as Red Hood.

[lucean]

I had forgotten it was Nightwing's style, thanks for the correction. I guess I was just so astonished that Clayface could take on one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in DCU by being such a good actor.

Winick's retcon made things so much more sensible in that regard.

[icon_uk]

Well.... I'd have to say no, not really. Clayface 4 (aka Lady Clay) had the ability to instantly mimic the powers and skills of people she copied (Don't ask how, comic science).

Hush was so convoluted they apparently had to make up their OWN Clayface (because, y'know, the previous SEVEN Clayfaces just weren't enough) prior to the retcon, so presumably intended him to have 4's power/skill-duplication too.

I was never impressed with Winick's retcon; if they were Dick's signature style then I'd have thought Jason would have had issues with some of the moves, since Dick was the superior acrobat and his moves play into that style of fighting. Jason could probably come quite close, but not to the extent that Bruce would be fooled.

[lucean]

Oh, I agree Winick retcon doesn't explain the Nightwing fighting style, but nothing really explains that. Considering that Dick is probably in the top 10 fighters in the DCU, top 5 when he's Batman, the mere thought that Clayface is able to replicate due to being such an incredible actor is just insane.

For me the retcon helped to at least provide a concept of how that confrontation lasted longer than two seconds and actually had some narrative weight to it, which is why to me it worked as a retcon.

[mrstatham]

Winick's retcon made absolutely no sense. There's no point in the depiction of the confrontation between 'Jason' and Batman in Hush where Jason could feasibly tag-in Clayface, and even prior to a point where he could tag-out, Bruce actively notes that 'Jason' NEVER refers to Tim or himself by name.

[skemono]

Welcome to the community. ^_^

The rules state that any images outside the cut have to be at most 400 x 300 pixels (or vice-versa), so I think you'll need to shrink the cover to fit that.

[panelsarewindows]

Will do. Thanks

[sagrada]

Hello new person! Hope you enjoy your time here. EDIT: Also, cool name.

[lordultimus]

Hush I actually really liked. The only problem with the story, besides the rushed break-up at the end, was that the World's Greatest Detective had to be directly told the secret identity of the villain 95% of readers had already figured out.

[mrstatham]

Well, to be fair, there was more going on than just Hush's identity. And even Hush's identity was somewhat botched; Lee and Loeb intended for Hush to be Jason all along, and got told 'no' by DC's editorial team, so they had to red-herring Tommy Elliot out of being the red-herring that he was, and make both his death and 'Jason' a fake-out.

If they'd actually been able to keep Hush as the real Jason Todd, that would have been a hell of a 'holy shit' moment.

[lordultimus]

Ok, that's pretty interesting, and I can't deny that that wouldn't have made a better story. Still, both this and the Long Halloween suffer from the fact that Batman never figured out the mystery on his own (though in fairness it was implied at the end of TLH that he knew who it was and wasn't telling)

[mrstatham]

I think at at end of TLH, Harvey tells them there were two Holiday killers, and Jim and Batman think he's just trying to lead them astray/that both Harvey and Alberto were 'Holiday', and were basically stumped as to otherwise. That Gilda is also a 'Holiday' killer as she claims seems especially unlikely.

With Hush? Batman does actually figure it out on his own. Tommy's just stupid enough to wear a family heirloom on his outfit, but Bruce is actually smart enough to figure out that the Lazarus Pit residue he finds in he back of the Riddler's getaway truck *isn't* linked to Ra's, and instead links back to Edward's medical history with Tommy. So Hush is a little bit better in that regard, IMO, because Batman figures out that Nygma and Tommy are linked on his own, and the former spills his guts and drops Crane in it, too.

[cyberghostface]

I really liked the Long Halloween/Dark Victory stuff but I found Hush to be very overrated. I guess they're all similar in structure but the Tim Sale stuff had at least more meat with Two-Face's arc whereas Hush was just style over substance. Idk if most people would even care if not for Jim Lee.

[icon_uk]

It's Lee that actually put me off as much as Loeb's writing, his style is very... bland to me. There's nothing technically wrong with it I suppose, but I've never once bought a comic because of his art being in it.

[panelsarewindows]

I understand that, but there's something about his art that's really... Dynamic (not a very useful word) to me. Then again, one of my favourite artists is John Romita Jr., so maybe I shouldn't be talking about art styles.

[mrstatham]

I think he's a great standard superhero artist and perfect for just... What I guess you'd call a 'blockbuster' story, but as you say, I wouldn't go out of my way to get something with Lee's art like I would say, Ashley Wood, Alex Maleev, Adrian Alphona, Fiona Staples or so on.

[lego_joker]

Agreed.

Lee draws a pretty boss Riddler and Scarecrow, though.

[randyripoff]

IMO, any time you take an 70 year old extremely popular character with tons of history and try to create a long lost childhood friend that shows up out of the woodwork, it plain just doesn't work. Given how many tremendously wonderful villains that Batman's had over the years that would have been much better foils than Tommy Elliott, one wonders why creators feel the need to create new ones (it's a rhetorical question of course, but still tremendously annoying).

[mrstatham]

Because people complain about the old villains being used too much and complain that writers are all out of ideas, but then the second that people start to make new villains, people complain about how bad they are compared to the existing villains.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

I liked how Batman and Catwoman worked together here. Kind of liked how they teased at the two being a sort of parallel to Lois and Clark, too...

...which I guess, in a way, they were in another time and place.

[mistervader]

I liked the part where Superman casually mentions he gave a ring to Batman.

All this, while I'm listening to Beyonce in the background. It's perfect.