Creeptastic Moments in Superheroism: Ultimate Wolverine

[espanolbot]

One of the established things with Wolverine is his acting as a mentor for numerous teenage superheroines over the years, be they Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, x23 etc. So naturally, when it came for Logan to be introduced into the Ultimate Comics imprint, they took as the same approach that they did with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's relationship... Which is to say, take something benign and make it REALLY creepy and inappropriate.

The seeds for this are sown in Ultimate Team-Up issueX-Men, where Logan attempts to hit on the then 14/15 year old Liz Allan and MJ when the X-Men stumble across Peter and Co. while in NYC.


This in place, we end up wandering over to the infamous, allegedly editorially mandated "Wolverine/Spider-man bodyswap" storyline in Ultimate Spider-man, where Peter and Logan end up swapping bodies for reasons explained below. While Peter is stumbling about like a drunk having no idea where he is and what's happening (including accidentally cutting off one of his own fingers with Logan's claws... luckily it grows back), Logan decides to take advantage of the situation when he realises that MJ (who, again, is 15) thinks that Logan is actually her boyfriend.


Later, Jean Grey catches up with Logan and Peter, and gives the REALLY unethical explanation for this whole mess.



And we get to the pay off of the earlier MJ scene...


Oh ho ho ho, it's funny because Logan used the underage body of Peter Parker to possibly have sex with MJ, in what I'm pretty sure is a case of "rape by deception". Oh wait, not funny. Awful. Like that brief time where Chameleon had sex with regular universe Peter's roommate while disguised as him (until they retconned it), or that time Dr Octopus stole Peter's body and identity and used it to start a sexual relationship with someone. Urgh.

A later issue of USM established that Peter and MJ didn't actually sleep with each other at that point (they actually have quite a sweet talk about the subject, about responsibility and MJ feeling the world is pressuring her to want to sleep with Peter in case he were to die suddenly... which he did shortly afterwards, but I appreciate the effort). But still, ew!

And the thing is? Logan doesn't even learn his lesson! Skip forward to the time when Liz Allan joins the X-Men (turns out that she's a mutant, 'cause her dad was the Blob and her mum had a thing for "circus people"... which sounds like a joke at the expense of Liz's mum, overweight people or people who work for circuses, I'm not sure which), where Logan (who has met her before, at least twice) makes a pass at her. Again.

And, yes, Liz is still the same age as MJ and Peter at this point. The timescale in USM was a touch weird due to the way Brian Michael Bendis wrote the story. I think that it was along the lines of "the first 100 issues happened within the first year" or something. Also Ultimate Nightcrawler was a homophobe. 'Cause Catholicism or something.

Thing is, despite this being a clumsy attempt at humour that's wrong on so many levels, creepy inter-generational relationships have been implied in the regular X-Men comics since the very start. Take Professor Xavier's internal monologue over how he finds the teenage Jean Grey so hot, for example.

Complete with 1960s era ablism, apparently. This was later made canon in the 1990s again with it being part of the Onslaught storyline or something, I've been lead to believe.

Comments

[captainbellman]

Still better written and less creepy than "Superior Spider-Man".

[skemono]

At least in Superior Spider-Man MJ was over the age of consent. That alone makes it less creepy than here.

[captainbellman]

Except here, nothing actually happened, while over there, several things did (to Anna Maria, and to poor Peter's own body).

[espanolbot]

Although they didn't have actual sexsex, Logan obviously attempted to do something... something that evidently went so poorly MJ feels that they should wait a while before doing it again.

Or maybe she turned him down, meaning that Logan still propositioned her in some way, which isn't AS bad but still gross.

[icon_uk]

Something DID happen... he made a move on a 15 year old and attempted to take advantage of the situation, the fact that it did not go as far as Logan wanted it pretty much irrelevant because HE MADE A MOVE on a 15 year old.

You don't get a prize for NOT being a creepy perv, it's kinda taken as a given that avoiding being one is a minimal part of the general human social contract.

[captainbellman]

I concede that point. I should have phrased it better - I was just trying to continue my argument that this is marginally less creepy because no physical contact actually took place. Not to mention, at least MJ had the chance to say no before anything awful happened.

Under post-OMD Spider-Man, as a comparison, rape by deception has happened multiple times without comment from any of the characters involved. Hell, one of them (Anna Maria) just shook it off with no ill-effect whatsoever despite the comparative trauma of having slept with a sadistic madman in another man's body multiple times.

In summation: all of the above pages are still creepy. Just not nearly as creepy as what's happened in Amazing Spider-Man.

[flint_marko]

Just wondering, are you familiar with the shows Revenge or The Americans?

[captainbellman]

Not at all.

[flint_marko]

In both shows the protagonist romances and has sex with someone using a false identity. I was wondering if you considered that rape as well.

[captainbellman]

As a law student, with or without context I'd say goddamned definitely. Fraud, by implication, necessitates not having consent.

I'd further argue that Slotto making use of Peter's memories of intercourse to 'relieve' himself in the shower (as was shown) is, within the context of a highly unrealistic scenario, also rape - since Peter was not able to give his consent to his body being used in that way.

Even if you don't agree, it is still a damned creepy thing to do to a beloved character in order to get a cheap laugh.

If I'm not missing your point...

[deh_tommy]

To be fair about that last point (though everything I say will probably just make things sound worse), Otto thought Peter was dead, and never knew about his ghost until #8. Was the scene in the shower (which was actually on a roof) supposed to be played for humour, though? And Otto was only Peter in name only when with Anna Maria, so her feelings of love were towards him and not Peter.

Otto also wasn't trying to pretend to be Peter for the sole purpose of having sex with anyone (and he couldn't bring himself to deceive Mary Jane). He met her, they fell in love and things spun out from there. It was also Anna Maria who encouraged him to have sex in the first place. I like to think of Superior Spider-Man like Pricipal Skinner in 'The Simpsons', where he took on the identity of the real Skinner after the latter's death in the Army.

But yes, it's still a bit creepy, and I apologise if anything I've said has made anyone uncomfortable or if the situation is worse.

[cyberghostface]

Neither Peter OR Otto had any past relationship with Anna Maria. Spock, Potto, whatever you want to call him... was a complete stranger.

If Peter were to CONTINUE having a relationship with Anna without telling her about the mind swap that would be rape by deception because even though he is the 'real' Peter he is not the one Anna Maria fell in love with.

[captainbellman]

I...beg your pardon? Rape by deception - and by extension, fraud - requires a past relationship? Show me the legal precedent for that, would you please?

Rape, by definition, flows from a lack of consent. You cannot consent to having sex with a person when you don't know who they are, even if you've never met them before. Slotto deceived her as to his identity. Peter revealing that to her doesn't magically undo the fact that she thought she was having sex with someone deceiving her.

In a realistic context - imagine a woman strikes up a relationship with a man who is posing as his more successful twin brother. The woman knows of him but doesn't know him personally. Later, he flees, and the twin brother meets her and tells her what happens. If the rogue was brought to court, are you seriously suggesting he could argue "She didn't know me before, as far as she knew I was the real thing, so I didn't really deceive her"? Or would his defence arise from "My brother isn't carrying on the relationship pretending to be me, that would be the real rape"?

Not to mention - criticising Slott's writing, not your argument - would this hypothetical woman not feel (at the very least) hurt, upset and betrayed, and unwilling to have further contact with either of the two brothers? Certainly not wanting to carry on working with the 'real' one...

[cyberghostface]

But Anna Maria didn't know anything about Peter. He was just some guy she tutored. It's not like he was a Tony Stark or someone rich and successful.

If you want to talk realistic contexts, something akin to witness protection would be a better comparison.

But using your brother comparison-- said brother wouldn't have fled. He would have died to save her because he loved her so much. Because that's what happened with Otto -- he sacrificed his entire consciousness to protect her. In that hypothetical scenario I don't think the girl would react with hatred.

[captainbellman]

Again - previous knowledge of the identity does not matter if it's still a fake identity. It is still rape, even if the identity used is completely false.

Also - "Love" is an acceptable defence now? It retroactively undoes harm, fraud and trauma? In that hypothetical twins scenario, you're seriously suggesting that the rogue brother would kill himself, and the woman would say "Oh, how romantic - he sacrificed everything for me", as opposed to seeing it as just another manipulation, not to mention taking the cowardly way out by not coming clean to her?

Is Season 3 of Hannibal going to end with Fred Chilton letting Dr. Lecter out of the Baltimore State Home for the Criminally Insane having found that he sacrificed his freedom because he deeply loves Will Graham?

[cyberghostface]

I'm suggesting that because that's exactly what happened with Otto -- he erased his consciousness so Anna Maria could be saved. If you're going to make that comparison then go all the way. Let's say he's pretending to be his brother because he's on the run from the mob. The mob finds him, kidnaps the girl so he goes to the mob and he ends up getting shot and killed to save her.

Also Otto didn't cause any harm or trauma to Anna Maria so there's no harm or trauma to undo.

[obsidianwolf]

No Witness protection doesn't work as an analog. Because Otto didn't turn himself into a legal authority and make a deal that in exchange for his relocation makes him live under their rules.

A better real world example would be a set of twins seperated at birth by being adopted by different families Where one had a decent if flawed life and the other was a real monster. The monster learns he has a twin brother and stalks him to learn everything he can about him and then murders him. He arranges for his brother to be buried under his old name while taking over his brother's life. He then lies to the face of everyone who knew his brother while using those people and connections to present himself as someone else to build the life he thinks he deserves. Including being willing to lie to the face of a woman he meets and plans to marry for the rest of her life because he knows she'd leave him in a heartbeat if he was honest.

There is no defense for anything Otto did he is a vile murder who walks around in his victim's corpse and lied to everyone who knew and loved the man that he was still around. He then used elements of that victim's life in crafting a fiction to convince a woman who would have rightly run in terror of the mass murdering monster to become involved in an intimate relationship with him. That is rape by deception.

[cyberghostface]

Was the evil twin dying due to brain trauma complications caused by the good twin and his friends constantly beating on him and that's why he took over his life?

[obsidianwolf]

That tack only works if Evil Twin was constantly assualting others and trying to get revenge on the good twin. Those beatings were his own damn fault as he ran around committing crimes and picking fights with super heroes. There is nothing innocent about Otto he was a criminal and monster.

There is no justification for Otto's actions and any good he did afterwards does not in any way make up for those actions. Otto's entire story line in Superior Spiderman can be summed up by pointing out it is all about him and his desires.

He wants revenge on Peter so he murders him and steals his life. Even after his whole epiphany about how wrong he was does he turn himself in and repent. No he decides he can be a better Spiderman than Peter. He then goes out and starts manipulating Peter's life to suit his desires. He keeps the parts he likes and abandons the parts he doesn't. He knowingly lies and manipulates people to suit his purposes. He then attempts to murder Peter a second time when he finds the ghost copy of Peter in his head. When he got future tech and got a chance to have A version of Anna he could be honest with he took it to create a creepy AI version who would call him Otto like he knew Anna never would. That makes it quiet clear he knew she'd dump him if she knew the truth.

[captainbellman]

Thank you.

[espanolbot]

He was being a creepy perv, just not a successful (if that's the right term in this case) one.

[baihu]

This the same Wolverine that creepily just hid in the undergrowth and watched Ultimate Wanda and Pietro have sex; after he had explained how either one of them or both could be his kids right?

[espanolbot]

Yuuuup.

And what's up with his expression there?

[icon_uk]

And what's up with his expression there?

I can honestly say that I do NOT want to know the answer to that because the possibilities are just too disturbing.

[mastermahan]

I'm the best at what I do... and what I do is hide in the bushes and watch creepy sex.

[baihu]

How could you miss out on the 'do my sister' line with that avatar!?

[captainbellman]

Also, if there were any people who could make a harmless baseball game look as though they were preparing to jump into a pit of angry three-headed shark zombies after 72 hours without sleep, it's the X-Men.

[norj]

Jean Grey mind-raping teammates at the drop of a hat.

[angelophile]

Can we not use rape metaphors here, please?

[captainbellman]

Mm. Besides the above conversations, what Jean does is really more along the lines of "Mind-Pranking".

[icon_uk]

Wolverines face there is just...nightmare fuel.....

[jaybee3]

Ultimate Wolverine also had sex with teenage Ultimate Jean Grey within an issue or two of meeting her (in the first five issues of the series no less) and then when she dumped him because he was a spy against Xavier or something he stalked her for much of the rest of the rest of the series and left Cyclops to die so he would be out of the "competition" for Jean's favors.

The difference between how writers seemed to treat 616 Logan as the face of Marvel and the way Ultimate Logan was basically a thorough sleaze makes one wonder what the folks of Marvel really think of the character.

[espanolbot]

It says kind of a lot about that Ultimate Universe approach to things when they were setting up. Captain America used as a patriot and man out of time? Make him the epitome of the "ugly American" post-9/11 stereotype. Wolverine shown forming close relationships with multiple teenage girls? Must be 'cause he wants to bang them. Hank Pymm once struck his wife in the midst of an emotional breakdown? Make him routinely abusive, and have him adopt the Giant Man persona as a not too subtle reference to his having potency issues (yeah, he has issues regarding being made to look small, and gets easily jealous of more traditionally masculine figures like Cap... so yeah, his choice of superpower is kind of a sex thing).

[silverhammerman]

These pages actively pissed me off to read, and the worst part is they're supposed to be funny. I know that sensibilities have changed in the past 10 years or so, but I have to think that even when this stuff came out those jokes would have been creepy and uncomfortable. Any competent editor should have immediately swatted this shit down, and maybe if it weren't just a bunch of men making these books, someone would have realized how uncomfortable these limp attempts at jokes are.

I do kind of like when Spider-Man tells off the X-Men, but it's still joke-y and disposable and frankly I'd be more interested if after this Spider-Man's general attitude towards the X-Men were one of enduring and pronounced personal dislike.

Also, people rightly bag on Mark Millar's terrible interpretations of Captain America and Hank Pym, but Wolverine might be the character done the biggest disservice in the Ultimate universe. He showed up in full Mr. Sales Power mode from the start, not benefiting from the nuance and growth than put the 616 Wolverine in that position, got inexplicably written as an asshole and a pervert, and got roped into serving as the basis for the Ultimate U's weird "mutants are artificial" retcon.

[espanolbot]

From what the issue seems to suggest, the bodyswap story was mandated by editorial... though whether that was BMB joking or trying to cover his ass, I don't know. And in any case, if it WAS something forced on him, this wasn't the way to go about it.

[silverhammerman]

Yeah, like either way, Bendis is the one who chose how to present the story and make those jokes, so it's on him. It's just a little disappointing to read this stuff coming from a creator who's a lot more conscientious now.

[an_idol_mind]

There are a disturbing number of superhero stories where a character gets body swapped and immediately commits or tries to commit a sex crime. This even happened in one of my favorite episodes of Justice League.

[jekylls_salvation]

So you're saying Logan's a dog. A debaucherous rogue. A regular anti-hero. A barbarian. Not a good guy. A real animal. You might be on to something here.

Also, Kurt is a devoutly religious Catholic. Not the American Catholic-Lite. He actually believes that the the writers of the bible wrote the will of the god of Abraham. In this case, Leviticus 20:13, for example. It's not the least bit a stretch to assume Kurt has personal beliefs about homosexuality as a result of his religious upbringing. Even if those beliefs are actually terrible and very probably based on bananas.

I do wish I could unsee that about the professor. I'm so disappointed right now, I'm thinking about befriending Magneto and inviting the Phoenix into my life.

[silverhammerman]

I think that what Wolverine does here is well beyond the pale of what an anti-hero or even a lovable lech can get away with. To be blunt, he acts like a sexual predator in these scans, and I think it goes too far to work while he remains a likable character.

Also it's more than a little simplistic to say that just because Nightcrawler is devout he should also be some kind of religious strawman. Personal faith has a lot of nuances and while I can buy that Nightcrawler's might have those beliefs at first, but holding onto them for any length of time doesn't strike me as fitting the character. It's just kind of lazy, obvious writing.

I kinda wish those couple panels from the Silver Age were just established as canon discontinuity now, because they're so monumentally gross and have probably tainted how lot of people view Professor X.

[jekylls_salvation]

Wolverine's obviously problematic. I'm honestly not sure why people like him. The struggle to overcome his nature and attempt to be a good guy? At the end of the day I'm not sure there's overwhelming evidence to suggest that he is a good guy, regardless of what the fans want. His relationship with the X-Men developed in a way that made them his family. Bad guys can have families too. The X-Men ground him, sort of domesticate them. But that didn't happen overnight, and it's a relatively newer development in his life. Wolverine's emergences into humanity after his origin made him a soldier, a dumb thug, an assassin, a drunkard... In the end, Wolverine is conflicted. That's a big part of him. But his search for nobility doesn't negate the fact that Wolverine IS a predator. He's been telling you right to your face for years: What he does isn't nice.

I don't think Nightcrawler's homophobic. If he's a devout Catholic, it's reasonable to speculate that he has religious beliefs about what homosexuality is according to God. But that doesn't mean he has to hate Pete. They can still be friends. But if he didn't believe Pete's going to hell, then his faith would be called in to question. Which I'm sure Bendis wasn't brave enough to address. Despite the fact that it would've met our expectation that Kurt's the kind of guy that would ultimately go through some character development. But that's just the nature of religion in comic books-- nobody ever mentions that there's no Jesus on Krypton.

That version of Professor X probably hung out with that era's Reed Richards a lot. Smoking pipes and talking about their problems with dames.

[silverhammerman]

I can totally buy that, at least at the start of his association with the X-Men, Wolverine is basically a bad guy trying to go straight, but the stuff above just doesn't work for that. It's one thing to have Wolverine as a guy with a violent past and blood on his hands who's trying to make good, but having him actively being a sleaze towards underage girls goes well past the realm of gray morality and into "Why the fuck would the X-Men keep this unrepentant piece of shit around?" territory.

As to Nightcrawler, I think we're pretty deep into stuff that's open to interpretation. Personally I don't buy that Nightcrawler is a fundamentalist so much as someone who justvalues his personal religion and at the very least, Nightcrawler's character development should see him grow past a dogmatic interpretation of his faith, because to not do so, even if he personally likes Colossus, leaves him as a bigot, full stop. Nightcrawler of all characters shouldn't be a bigot.

I think Silver Age Xavier would probably get along best with Byrne era Reed Richards actually, given how they both liked their women creepily young.

[espanolbot]

Regular universe Nightcrawler isn't homophobic, but Ultimate Universe one was. His reaction to Colossus coming out was to shun him, even calling him an abomination at one point, I believe. Kurt also kidnapped the Ultimate version of Dazzler at one point and hid her underground in order to keep her away from anything that could corrupt her, like Piotr.

So Kurt got whacked with a different unpleasantness stick to Logan, but he still got hit with one. The Ultimate version of Magneto, for example, is extremely ablist (he did not react well when he found out that Charles brainwashed him to be a carer for a group of people with mental disabilities... the R word is used), and wanted to breed humans for food after his "mutants foreverz!" plan came into being.

[cyberghostface]

Both Ult Pete and MJ were virgins by the time of the third annual. They never had sex.

[espanolbot]

There are still things people can do which are sexual that people don't seem to count as actual sex. That's where the whole "technical virgin" thing comes into play.

[deh_tommy]

Why couldn't Peter and Mary-Jane simply have kissed? She said he 'tried to do' something, not that he actually did it or succeeded.

[espanolbot]

Because the contest doesn't make it seem like something so innocent. Wolverine's behaviour both prior and after this doesn't suggest that his smirk is a "Heh heh, I kissed Peter's 15 year old girlfriend and she didn't know it was me!", and more "I got under MJ's bra!".