Red Hood/Arsenal #4

[history79]

Comments

[quatoria]

It's interesting to me, how often Waylon is showing up as the monster with a heart of gold, lately. I really like that, tbh.

[redmagpie]

Yeah, I liked him in Catwoman. Has this ever been part of his character before?

[zechs80]

He was also adorable in Gotham Academy. I'm glad their sticking with this version of Croc.

[mrstatham]

They've been pushing this angle since about the midpoint of the Blackman/JHW3 run on Batwoman, and it's been carried across Eternal, Catwoman, Gotham Academy and now this since.

[dark_tzitzimine]

This characterization of Croc showed up for the first time in the N52 on RHATO and then taken for the other titles.

[reveen]

Since the 90s atleast. I think there was a post on that here somewhere.

[kd_the_movie]

I kinda miss the heroin addiction narrative of Roy. While Alcoholism is far more prevalent and underestimated as far as addictions go, being a heroin addict is more ballsy and highlights the fact that even the best of us can fall prey to the most heinous of addictions.

[starwolf_oakley]

Roy being a heroin addict was ballsy in 1971. Heroin was a problem,and it never really stopped being a problem. Maybe it was a more "out there" and topical choice at the time. I'm sure there are reasons it was changed int he nu52.

Although, the in-story explanation lost me a bit. Roy is sad Ollie is doing this "travel America" bit with Hal and Dinah. Instead of telling his friends in the Titans he is sad, he starts using heroin. I've wondered if they've ever had a Pre-FLASHPOINT confrontation about this.

Dick: This is about Roy, isn't it? You're blaming me for what happened to him.
Ollie: I blame myself for what happened to him. But Batman's protege can't tell when someone's shooting up in the Titan's bathroom?

[icon_uk]

To which my reply would be; "Screw you Ollie, you santimonious, blame diverting asshole"

You do NOT say "I blame myself, but it's your fault too!" to a minor, Batman's protege or no.

[silverhammerman]

I find it a little surprising that Roy Harper is never linked to the club drug scene these days; it would make quite a bit of sense for the unsupervised ward of a millionaire to be shown getting into that stuff.

[janegray]

I LOVE it when Crock is treated like an actual character rather than a GRRRRR ME BIG AND SCALY beast. This was such a great scene :D

I also loved the scene with the waitress. Bittersweet in all the right ways. I actually did a little squee when they hugged.

Pretty much the only thing I don't like is that they aged Jason up again, he was so much younger than portrayed here when he stole Batman's tires. But it's impossible to avoid aging up the characters with the shifting timeline, and we can't drop the shifting timeline because Batman can never grow old. Didn't they say Dick became Robin at like 16 in this new continuity?

[starwolf_oakley]

Jason Todd isn't a hateful, murderous monster? Comic books are weird.

[icon_uk]

Oh he's still quite into the murdering thing, which makes his New52 close relationship with Tim even more awkward/

[dark_tzitzimine]

Why? The foundations of their relationship on the N52 is diametrally opposite to the one thay had on the pre flashpoint DCU plus is being strongly implied that Jason only fought the batfamily once instead of being a constant thorn on their side as it was with the pre flashpoint version.

[icon_uk]

Why? Because I have a deep problem with anyone in the Batfamily giving Jason a free pass on murder just because he used to be Robin.

Jason kills people, repeatedly and without due process. Not nice people, I grant you (or I presume that's his preference), but the whole crux of the Batdfamily is "We do not kill... EVER!". so Bruce getting all wooby with the injured Jason after "Death of the Family" rather stuck in my craw (As Bruce knew full well that Jason would be out shooting people again as soon as he was well), and Tim and Barbara both seem worryingly complacent in theiri interactions with someone whose mission is one that they would immediately do everything in their power stop anyone else for doing.

I still have issues with Damian's casual murder of the Spook never being an issue with anyone (And if various flashbacks are taken into account, his bodycount before we met him seems to be rather on the high side)

[dark_tzitzimine]

Both Bruce and Tim have expressed that they tolerate Jason due the fact someone able to make the hard choices is necessary at times. Barbara is differen matter entirely due the fact she and Jason were horribly out of character during Eternal. The only time they meet before Eternal, Barbara had only contempt for him and she actually told him that the next time they would meet she would take him down.

Plus, Bruce is more lenient towards lethal force on the N52. Even during "Detha of the Family" he admitted that he didn't kill the Joker due a moral code but because he felt it would only bring something worse into the fray.

[icon_uk]

Barbara and Jason appeared to get on fine in the "Recover Damian's body from Apokalips" thing, which wasn't Eternal, so I'm not sure what counts as the baseline and what it OOC these days.

And accepting killing as "Making the hard choices" is so OOC for Bruce (and his extended clan) that I hardly know where to start. They wouldn't consider that as "the hard choice" so much as "the wrong choice". It instantly renders every decision he has ever made as regards "not killing" null and void. "I don't kill, but it's okay if one of my former wards does" is not something which should ever sit right with a man entirely motivated by the impact of death on his life.

Does Jason assess each person he shoots in relation to, say, whether they have family or not? If they are actually guilty of a crime worthy of being shot dead? If they are acting under coercion of some sort? I rather doubt it.

I will note that Bruce has always accepted the death penalty as a thing which exists in the democratic system within which he lives, and accepts that. However that is after due process of law and judgement, not the decisions made by one individual.

[zapbiffpow]

What's the call to action here, then? I ask because I've always liked Red Hood, and like seeing him work with the Bat-Family.

[beyondthefringe]

Wait...
this series is still being written by Lobdell and it -doesn't- suck?
Huh.

[zapbiffpow]

"Maybe the only honorable thing this mook has ever done."

Nah, don't sell yourself short, Waylon. Weren't you King Croc of those homeless people for a time? Aren't you still?

[punisher007]

Yes he was, and it was great. IDK if he still is, last I saw of him he was working with/for "Boss Selina Kyle" at the end of Eternal.

[zapbiffpow]

Here's hoping they've worked out some kind of work deal between Croc's homeless guys and Selina's empire. It seems like something mutually beneficial.

[skemono]

Killer Croc was Roy's AA sponsor? Uh... how'd that happen?

"Awwright, Croc, Imma shoot you fulla holesh. Urgh. When the room shtopsh shpinning."
"...are you all right?"
"No, you're drunk!"
"I didn't say--"
"Get off my back!"
"Okay, dude, I'm checking you into rehab. Come back for me when you're sober--fighting you like this would just ruin my street cred."

[tianyulong]

Basically Roy was really drunk and depressed, and at his lowest decided to commit suicide by Killer Croc. Killer Croc realized this (I think mid fight? I haven't read the actual scene) and talked him out of it.

[dark_tzitzimine]

Exactly. The whole dynamic with Croc has been handled really well.

[punisher007]

He's been Roy's AA sponsor pretty much since the New 52 began.