icon_uk: (Default)
[personal profile] icon_uk posting in [community profile] scans_daily
CBR, io9 and other sites are noting how certain sections of the more... conservative end of the US media are finding the new title featuring Sam Wilson as Captain America problematic.

Perhaps not so much for the fact we have an African-American Cap (Which is something of a relief), but more because they apparently resent how their views as being are being presented, as the first villain that Sam faces is the Supreme Serpent of The Sons of the Serpent.

Be warned this IS Fox News;

I could spend a little while dissecting this myself (Like casually NOT mentioning how the "Cap punching Hitler" image would be considered politically controversial because America hadn't entered the war at the point it was published) but fish... barrel...

Apparently the fact that Nick Spencer, the writer, has made unflattering tweets about Donald Trump (Which of course he must have been the ONLY one in the whole world to do) means he must be a liberal shill out to make cult of nasty, murderous, racist, politically infiltrating right wingers look bad.

Oh I'm sorry, I can't even SATIRE this properly... it comes pre-satired...

Date: 2015-10-19 05:34 pm (UTC)
crinos: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crinos
I'm gonna say this. If you feel like you're being targeted by a comic where the main antagonist is the Sons of the Serpent (Who, if you don't know, are basically the KKK with a snake motif). If you feel that comic is calling you out specifically. then maybe you should take a long hard look at your life and the choices you've made if you think the Snake Klansmen are a stand in for you and your group.
Edited Date: 2015-10-19 05:35 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-19 05:59 pm (UTC)
malitia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] malitia
I really need a "like" button now.

Date: 2015-10-19 06:07 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (PinkiePie)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
Basically everything you just said.

Date: 2015-10-19 06:35 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Not a conservative myself but the issue is less "the villains are a hate group based off the KKK" but rather that he's using them as fairly blatant strawman to espouse and knock down conservative views (they're anti-illegal immigration, they call Cap "Captain Socialism", etc).

Date: 2015-10-19 10:18 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
You could say the same thing about almost anything.

Date: 2015-10-19 11:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
Agreed. Lets not forget the depiction of the coyote, which was rather kind for a career that's usually dominated by the cartels.

Date: 2015-10-20 09:48 am (UTC)
raspberryrain: "Waiting for the train" cropped and colour-shifted (rain)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
Coyote? Coyotes are smugglers, and as you say, generally mobsters. No, in the other page of scans, Joaquin's abuela seems to think he was more like the humanitarian groups that put out water for crossing migrants, which is a real thing, and separate.

I haven't read the issue, though.

Date: 2015-10-20 01:17 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] punisher007
Considering how much Fox tends to throw around the word "socialism" or "communism," or whatever in regards to people who THEY disagree with, but then constantly whine about "media bias" when they're called out on it, I'm not all that sympathetic to their complaints.

Date: 2015-10-20 01:26 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Not my point, but it's pretty weak to use straw men in fiction regardless of what political side you're on. Same thing with the Absorbing Man and the new Thor.

Date: 2015-10-20 01:30 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
In your opinion, how do you portray a hate group in fiction without it being a straw man?

Date: 2015-10-20 01:50 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Depends on the fiction. "Some Anvils Need to be Dropped" as TV Tropes says.

Marvel walks that line a lot, usually with the X-Men. Being a superhero comic, "prudent caution about some mutants" usually turns into "fire up the Sentinels."

Date: 2015-10-20 02:23 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
illegal immigration is a hot topic politically at the moment so doing a story where the viewpoints of opponents of such are given to a super villain hate group is a strawman.

I support gay marriage but if someone did a story where the Red Skull was a proponent for 'traditional marriage' and started quoting Republican talking points I'd say that it's pretty silly.

Date: 2015-10-20 03:04 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Racism in general is a hot topic right now. Racism has repeatedly been a hot topic throughout American history. If immigration wasn't a hot topic, then it would be fine? I have no idea what you mean.

The Sons of the Serpent are an established white supremacist group. It's only logical that a racist supervillain would quote racist talking points. If there was a homophobic villain, he would also probably quote homophobic taking points. I'm not sure why you think that's silly. Political viewpoints exist on a spectrum. Environmentalists and eco-terrorists both exist, they both have a set of talking points about how we should save the earth. That doesn't make Poison Ivy or Ra's al Ghul strawmen.

Date: 2015-10-20 03:28 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
If immigration wasn't a hot topic, there wouldn't be any scene with Falcon!Cap rescuing a group of immigrants at the border from a group of super villains spouting Republican talking points. C'mon. This isn't taking place in a vacuum. Even the writer acknowledged what his intent was.

And Poison Ivy could easily be used as a strawman if the writer wanted her to to be. Or J. Jonah Jameson or even Superman depending on the writer.
Edited Date: 2015-10-20 03:31 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-20 05:41 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Of course it's not taking place in a vacuum. Racism exists in the real world. I'm asking you how you portray a superhero fighting against racist extremism without it being a strawman.

Date: 2015-10-20 09:53 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Chris Claremont was able to do it with his in on Uncanny.

Date: 2015-10-20 10:37 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
I mean actual white supremacists, who actually do hate illegal immigrants. No one's putting conservative viewpoints into the mouths of hate groups. These are opinions that actual hate groups have.

Date: 2015-10-20 11:43 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I think we both know something like "Captain Socialism" is something that a straw conservative would say.

Date: 2015-10-20 12:05 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Look, I was the one who said randomly using socialism as an insult wasn't a conservative view, and you argued it was a commonly used phrase. How is it strawmanning anyone to use a commonly used phrase, then? This is like saying a portrayal of birthers is strawmanning conservatives. No, birthers are just a thing that exists.

Date: 2015-10-20 06:37 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
How is it strawmanning anyone to use a commonly used phrase, then?

...because...he's having militant terrorists using it...?

A better comparison would be if the Red Skull starting spouting birther rhetoric at Captain America.
Edited Date: 2015-10-20 06:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-10-21 12:35 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
What, real life American hate groups don't also use socialist as an insult? If Red Skull called Obama a Kenyan that would be...unremarkable? Not that he would literally be a birther, but it seems perfectly reasonable that he would use that rhetoric as an insult.

Date: 2015-10-21 01:02 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
What, real life American hate groups don't also use socialist as an insult?

I don't know, do they? Is that a term that militant hate groups predominately use over other groups?

Date: 2015-10-21 01:39 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
You said it yourself, it's a common insult within the less rational right-wing, it's perfectly reasonable for a right-wing hate group to use it. Like, if a left-wing extremist villain calls someone a fascist or a capitalist or something, that's not a strawman either.

Date: 2015-10-21 02:09 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I'm not asking you whether the less rational right wing would use such a word, I'm asking whether its predominately used by militant hate groups. There's a difference.

Not to mention the Sons of the Serpent's ideology has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.

Date: 2015-10-20 08:40 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
Considering that real life mainstream conservatives unashamedly call Obama of all people a socialist, I would not call that a strawman statement.

Date: 2015-10-20 08:52 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
That's not the point, it's the usage and context.

Date: 2015-10-20 03:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
But it does make them strawmen. Even if its on a side that more people reading comics may tend to agree with. It's about the way the issue is argued, not which side of the argument is expressed.

Date: 2015-10-20 05:46 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
It doesn't make them strawmen when there's no argument going on. What percentage of writers who use Poison Ivy or Ra's a Ghul as villains do you think are actually anti-environmentalists?

Date: 2015-10-20 01:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
They aren't anti-enviornmentalists; they give Poison Ivy or Ras Al Ghul some good and topical points environmentalism even though they're the villians.

Date: 2015-10-20 01:30 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
So they're not strawmen. Look up what a straw man is. It's not that.

Also, Poison Ivy is sympathetic these days, sure, but Ra's al Ghul has pretty much never made a good point in his entire existence, he is a pompous shithead.

Date: 2015-10-20 01:29 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Hahaha, do you really consider randomly using 'socialist' as an insult to be a conservative view?

Lots of people are against illegal immigration. Racists are some of those people. Are we not supposed to condemn people who think it's a good idea to take the law into their own hands and patrol the border with guns?

Date: 2015-10-20 02:27 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
It's a commonly used phrase at least. I.e. during the 2008 election it was what they used to attack Obama the most after the Kenyan bs.

Date: 2015-10-20 03:06 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
But it is not a reasonable or defensible point of view. How is it wrong to vilify this view, or to attribute it to unreasonable people?

Date: 2015-10-20 08:42 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
which is why it's not a strawman argument for a right wing hate group to use that kind of statement as an insult.

Date: 2015-10-19 06:14 pm (UTC)
bizarrohulk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bizarrohulk
The comment about the "Cap punching Hitler" cover is especially ironic since you just know that if Fox News had existed in the 1930s they'd have been among those complaining about it.

Kurt Busiak said it best...

Date: 2015-10-19 11:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 7dialsmystery
"I saw a tweet saying liberals should create their own Captain America. They did. In 1940."

Re: Kurt Busiak said it best...

Date: 2015-10-20 02:35 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yep :)

Date: 2015-10-20 01:41 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
For a while in the 1980s, the Sons of the Serpent were replaced by the Watchdogs. The Watchdogs weren't racist psychos, but psychos none-the-less. Their thing was "morality" instead of "racial purity."


:slow clap:

Date: 2015-10-20 08:50 am (UTC)
raspberryrain: http://neutralx0.net/tool/bnmk_e.html (I am not a catgirl)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
So, Fox News want to claim the Sons of the Serpent as their guys. They're just asking for it, aren't they? I am reminded of when another right-wing publisher (I want to say the Weekly Standard) insisted that in their eyes the Empire were the good guys in Star Wars and the Rebellion were the bad guys.

Re: :slow clap:

Date: 2015-10-21 12:24 am (UTC)
yap: (Default)
From: [personal profile] yap
Years back, I found a website that said both sides of the force were evil- with Yoda being a demon.

Date: 2015-10-22 05:52 am (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Basically a ManBearPig hunt then?


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