NS: Nightwing Versus Winter Soldier

[lucean]

Bat in the Sun released their newest Super Power Beat Down episode which pits Nightwing against Winter Soldier. The winner is based on a vote and the fights are always really well choreographed and acted by people really looking like who they are supposed to be. I highly recommend watching it although warn that the fight is really bruta. On the brighter side, the winner does it in an insanely badass way and the video has one of the best dick pic jokes I've ever heard.

www.youtube.com/watch

Did I not say that Nightwing was incredibly badass there. Two larger points that the fight made think about.

First, something that amused is the amount of comments that criticed the ending in that Nightwing only won because of Batman. Which is somewhat amusing, because yeah, he won because he was trained by the ultimate badass of the DCU and became an almost as a big of a badass on his own. The complaints are even more amusing when you realize Winter Soldier is on the level he is because he needs to match Captain America.

Second, after watching that I again was puzzled that there is no real efforts for a live action Nightwing as, even if the was only decent, would seem a license to print money. Especially if you look at their efforts on the TV series, the background of Nightwing makes him a natural choice. I know of the failed Teen Titans show, but why not make Nightwing a solo show? And I almost made a snide comment about Johns.

Comments

[freezer]

So Super Power Beat Down is basically (live action) Death Battle with fan voting?

Not quite a complaint, mind.

[zapbiffpow]

I actually have no problem with the results. Assuming comic book universes, pure good beats morally ambiguous every time.

Also, the core problem with a live-action Nightwing is probably casting. He's like reverse Maris Crane: he's so handsome and charming and whatnot, it's impossible to find anyone who'd pass the high standards required for such a character. The only way you'd cast the perfect Dick Grayson is to cast a blood ritual over a Mikel Janin sketch.

I'd rather watch a Red Hood miniseries with a FX's Fargo-style narrative - not because I hate Nightwing! Jason just has decidedly less astronomical cinematic standards to live up to.

[icon_uk]

I'm glad someone posted this, if they hadn't, I had it lined up for a "Cheer up Monday Morning" post myself! :)

As you say, rather brutal, but that makes logical sense given "Beating the other guy up" IS the skillset of both of them, and they do it with style!

And that is one damn fine Nightwing! I wionder if he has a Disco!Wing outfit! :)

[icon_uk]

Indeed, you'd need some sort of Frankensteins-like process to put together Dick Grayson.

Components from the likes of Matt Bomer (looks and charm), Roberto Bolle (physical grace, looks and that posterior!), Brennan Mejia (Ridiculous levels of casual athleticism and body control) and even then Bomer and Bolle are now too old.

Excuse me, I'll be over here in my happy place, just trying to work out ways to fit those three together.... it might involve baby oil too, to cut down on friction...

[xakko]

poor Marisha's voice - I think this was recorded after Comic Con?

nice to see she's staying true to her fandom even after DC pulled the plug on the Batgirl:Spoiled web series she starred in.

I'm not terribly fond the idea of superhero fights to the death, particularly with characters who don't kill as a rule, but I agree with the result. But then, the Winter Soldier retcon never sat that well with me, the idea of a single bionic arm being that advantageous (and that advanced) never made that much sense to me, so I'm probably prejudiced.

[chrisdv]

why not make Nightwing a solo show?

Because then the Arrow writers can't write Discount Batman anymore.

[tigerkaya]

Saw the video very nice well choreographed, I'd like to see a real death battle no voting this time.

[bizarrohulk]

Good production values; great fight choreography; terrible acting, especially from Oracle.

It's possibly just my Marvel bias talking, but given that this is Movie!Bucky, a super-soldier who's held his own against both Captain America and Black Panther, I wouldn't give Nightwing much of a chance, especially in a fight to the death. To me, Dick has always been closer to Daredevil's level than someone who could take on Cap.

The best Super Power Beatdown, imo, is Joker & Harley vs Deadpool & Domino. Their Joker is better than Leto.

[icon_uk]

Oh come on now it's not as if they've used traditionally Bat-Family villains like say, Ra's al Ghul or Deathstr.... errr I mean, it's not like they've created an Oracle analog to.... ummmm I mean it's not like they've used his Batfamily like sidekicks to..... Sigh... I'm just gonna stop now.

[theflames]

Brennan Mejia really does emote Nightwing's positivity and confidence too to be honest, a fusion of those three men would be godly.

[lucean]

Couple of counterpoints. First, in the current MCU, I think Daredevil could take on Cap. Second, Dick is pretty much one of the most highly skilled combatants in the DCU who has successfully taken on several superpowered fighters. Nightwing has a pretty good chance in that fight.

[bizarrohulk]

Daredevil is possibly my favourite Marvel character, but I don't think that there's any universe where he could take Captain America in a fair fight. in the MCU he has to work hard to take down low-level mobsters and bikers, and takes some heavy hits in the process, whereas Cap tears through an equal number of trained SHIELD agents without getting touched.

Part of the problem in comparing Nightwing and Winter Soldier is that they're not only from different universes but also from different media - a comic-book character is, almost by definition, going to have a more extensive and impressive list of feats than a movie character. In the MCU, Black Widow is presented as the absolute peak of what a non-augmented human fighter can do, and even she didn't do very well against the Winter Soldier.

[lucean]

But both of them are still comic book characters. Winter Soldier was introduced and established in the comics long before the screen. What we must do is to look how those two compare within universe, where in DCU Dick Grayson has taken on and defeated several big time threats, including Midnighter.

As a sidenote, Daredevil has been a part of the Avengers and has taken on several mystical ninja clans and warriors over time. I think it is actually canon that DD is one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in MCU.

[monsieur_safior]

Ugh, I hate this kind of stupid show who are their only to satisfy idiotic fanboy who want the confirmation then their favorite character is better then another!

I love intercompagny compagny crossover, but I hate dumb fight like this when most of the time character act OOC!

[silverhammerman]

A Nightwing TV show is one of those adaptations which I've been thinking about for years, and it seems to have a lot going for it. The link to the Bat-mythos is simple to understand and gives access to a great cast of characters, Nightwing is one of the few male superheroes actually acknowledged and treated as a sex symbol, it could have the daddy issues which TV writers seem to love so much, and unlike Batman you could actually get away with changing and developing Nightwing a little bit. Have the show begin with Dick Grayson moving to a new city and setting out on his own, while still allowing appearances from characters from his past, and it seems like a no brainer set up.

[tigerkaya]

Company crossovers are terrible too much bias and favoritism. The is called LA vs Avengers was just really Avengers being the backseat passengers to a JLA mess.

[bizarrohulk]

They managed to find good actors to play Captain America and Wonder Woman, so I don't see casting Nightwing presenting any unique challenges.

[bizarrohulk]

Did Nightwing really beat Midnighter? because that ... seems like it shouldn't happen.

[lucean]

It did and they gave the reasoning for it. Again, Dick Grayson is one of the top heroes of the DCU, which allows for things like that or being justified in beating the Winter Soldier.

[monsieur_safior]

WRONG!

Most of compagny crossover avoid this pitfall by trying to not make one heroes above the other.

Plus most of them are most team up then real fight, unike the fan show.

[funbox]

That something I really did enjoy about the Grayson run. It, to me, really established Dick as becoming essentially an equal/peer to Batman in terms of skills and combat ability, with his own unique style.

[funbox]

That's something I really did enjoy about the Grayson run. It, to me, really established Dick as becoming essentially an equal/peer to Batman in terms of skills and combat ability, with his own unique style.

[beeyo]

Was that John Morrison playing Bucky?

[beeyo]

Oh, and I think the guy that plays Nightwing actually has a fan made Nightwing series, but I'm at work and don't have time to check

[lucean]

That was who it was. I knew I recognized Bucky's actor from somewhere, but couldn't make the connection.

[beeyo]

Replying to myself, I guess, but I was wrong about the guy playing Nightwing.

However, the Nightwing series I was thinking about can be found below, if anyone was interested. I haven't watched in a while and can't comment on it's quality (I do remember hating the guy playing Bruce and what they did with Barbara), but if you'received so inclined...

https://youtu.be/o297A1wmys0

[icon_uk]

Given the sheer number of peak human/beyond human/metahumans Dick has been fighting since before his voice broke (With Batman, with the Titans, or solo), not really seeing Bucky as being THAT big a deal from his POV.

Bucky isn't quite a super-soldier. He's a peak level human with a single robot arm, trained by Captain America sure, but Dick has been trained by Batman too.

To be honest, it's Bucky being a match for Cap I'd have more of a raised eyebrow at.

[icon_uk]

One of Dick's primary skills is that he's very adaptable. Like Batman he's learned multiple disciplines, but adds in acrobatics and gymnastics.

Midnighter made the mistake of saying that he'd observed all the available footage of Nightwing's combat skills in order to prepare to their fight (in an effort to encourage him to surrender). He compares his style to jazz, improvised and ever changing.

So Dick didn't fight like he did as Nightwing, he switched style to fight like he did when he was Robin, who Midnighter hadn't studied. A somewhat more primitive style (Dick suggests it's the difference between jazz, and punk rock) slightly less variable, but different enough in tempo and style to make the difference when it's not what Midnighter was prepared for.

[bizarrohulk]

Well, I'm going by the MCU version, since that appears to be the one they're using in the video. There, Bucky is explicitly a super-soldier thanks to Zola's experiments. I agree that comic!Bucky should be no match for Cap, but movie!Bucky fought him to a standstill twice (though it could be argued that Steve was holding back the second time).

[bizarrohulk]

I haven't followed Midnighter's solo series, so I only really know him from The Authority, but that sounds like a heavily nerfed version of the way his powers used to work. He never had to study his opponents beforehand - his implants effectively gave him combat-specific precognition that worked even against opponents he'd never met before.

Still, it's not like DC has treated any other ex-Wildstorm character with respect, so why should Midnighter be the odd man out?

[beeyo]

I honestly think the hardest thing to capture about Dick Grayson would be his charisma, his ability to draw people toward him, something that seems incredibly daunting for an actor. How many actors can we think of that can attract people's attention on screen in the way that Grayson does on page?


I'll tell you who. Bryan Cranston.

Bryan Cranston for Nightwing.

[lucean]

It wasn't Midnighter's solo series, it was in the Grayson book. As for respect for Wildstorm characters, Midnighters gotten plenty, he just beat Prometheu in his own book, but Grayson is above him in the hierarchy.

Which actually brings us to a central question, which I hope doesn't come across as too hostile as it is in no way intended as such. Based on this discussion, you don't actually seem to have a strong grasp on what Nightwing has been shown to be capable of. Thus I am not completely certain why you object so deeply on the victory as, and trust me on this, it is completely within the scope of what Dick has achieved within the DCU.

[joetuss]

Will Smith is probably the most charismatic actor in the world.

[joetuss]

That's precisely why i don't watch it

[thanekos]

There's a bit in the upcoming Deathstroke book that actually seems to make that argument indirectly, in terms of Nightwing's skill and hard super-soldier types.

An excerpt on Christopher Priest's site has Rose and Slade talking in apparent flashback-

" How long have you thought that? That I'm not ready? I was trained by Nightwing.. "
" The prosecution rests. "

(The proposal's working from pre-New 52 history, because is there any part of New 52 Deathstroke anyone wants to keep?)

[beeyo]

Everyone here needs to read Batman/Ninja Turtles.

[beeyo]

I'd watch a Will Smith Nightwing.

[monsieur_safior]

I agree.

[icon_uk]

He never had to study his opponents beforehand

Maybe not, but we're talking Dick Grayson here. Never mind the fact Midnighter is an appreciator of good looking guys AND combat skills, footage of Nightwing in action would be something just about everyone would want to watch, up to and including 87 year old grannies!

[icon_uk]

In fairness, I don't think Dick ever has beaten Slade in straightforward hand to hand combat, though he's lasted longer than just about anyone else we've seen him up against who wasn't actively superpowered (and longer than many of them who weren't "flying brick" types).

Slade being dismissive of Dick though seems off, in his own warped way he usually seemed to respect, if not quite "like" him, mostly because of his determination, smarts and the fact that he was one of Joey's best friends, which Slade is grateful for.

[joetuss]

I wouldn't lol