X-Men Forever #17
Sep. 8th, 2016 09:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2016-09-08 07:35 pm (UTC)(damn, now I kind of want to see that...)
-"You actually look quite striking"
Kurt, dude. C'mon. Too soon.
And it's... kind of difficult to buy Mystique as the benevolent protective mother type.
I mean, she's Mystique, y'know?
A couple decades of her being pointlessly evil are working against her.
(Including murdering that guy back in Ms. Marvel.)
no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 08:10 pm (UTC)When Claremont wrote her it was clear she loved Rogue (the reason why she went after Ms. Marvel was because Destiny predicted Carol would hurt her), and she also showed concern for Nightcrawler.
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Date: 2016-09-08 08:30 pm (UTC)And tried to murder Senator Kelly to prove Mutants were superior.
And she blew up Muir Island.
All while written by Claremont.
Not to mention Lobdell, who had her shot Rhane with a Neutralizer, stab Rogue, and try to wipe out mankind with a modified version of the Legacy Virus.
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Date: 2016-09-08 09:09 pm (UTC)She wanted to kill Kelly because he was a virulently anti-mutant politician and Destiny saw him as a threat.
As for Dream's End, while Claremont wrote her blowing up Muir Island, I'm pretty sure it was editorial that dictated the beats of the storyline since it was a big crossover.
And even then, he established afterwards that her actions were because she has been trying to prevent a horrible future that Destiny had predicted.
The scene Lobdell wrote where she stabbed Rogue was pretty poorly-written, IMO, but even then it was established she was more unstable than usual, and later comics have shown her regretting what she did and wanting to earn Rogue's forgiveness.
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Date: 2016-09-08 10:38 pm (UTC)That does not absolve her of killing him one iota, it doesn't even explain it.
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Date: 2016-09-08 10:46 pm (UTC)Yes it was evil, but she did it because she loved Rogue, so I don't think it counts as being "pointlessly evil," like she just did it because she's bad.
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Date: 2016-09-08 11:54 pm (UTC)She saw nothing wrong in choosing to murder someone who had done her no harm at all, in order to cause Carol pain, and she did so A) in the shape of his girlfriend, and B) Not even giving him a swift painless death, but by beating him to death.
That's definitely "pointless evil" IMHO.
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Date: 2016-09-09 12:07 am (UTC)Regardless, I don't think it "works against" her wanting to help Rogue here like the original poster argued, since she's pretty much always been like that.
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Date: 2016-09-08 08:58 pm (UTC)"Benevolent" doesn't make sense, but I'm not seeing much indication of that.
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Date: 2016-09-08 09:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 09:35 pm (UTC)And as a practical matter, it's difficult to "make" someone with Rogue's power do anything, especially when she had her Ms. Marvel abilities.
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Date: 2016-09-08 09:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 10:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 10:34 pm (UTC)Picture the parent who insists that their children live near them, rather than encouraging them to take an awesome job in another state/country. Or the parent that sabotages their kids' relationships so that the kid will never leave them. "Property" in that sense.
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Date: 2016-09-08 10:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 11:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 11:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-09 12:01 am (UTC)Mystique and Nightcrawler are another story; while she cares about him, they haven't really had a lot of interaction. He's her biological child, but Rogue is the one she raised as her own.
As for the cliff scene; that happened after Claremont left, so as far as x-men forever here is concerned it didn't happen, but she was being chased by an angry mob who forced her to throw him off a cliff.
http://m.imgur.com/5nUsFwZ
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Date: 2016-09-09 12:11 am (UTC)As to the waterfall scene, you omitted the part (on the same page!) where she says that she never regretted throwing Kurt to his death. She seems to revel in that fact. More or less the point of no return for me.
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Date: 2016-09-09 01:01 am (UTC)And I think Mystique can be manipulative at times because she thinks she knows what's best for Rogue, but I don't know what else she would have to do at this point to prove her love isn't self-centered.
Furthermore, you earlier mentionied the "non-resolution" of that scene, but we know that Mystique went to Storm and warned her so she would save Rogue.
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Date: 2016-09-09 03:33 pm (UTC)Claremont also told why Mystique had left the infant Nightcrawler: “Mystique abandoned him because she was totally freaked by this indigo-furred creature with “deformed” appendages and a forked tail! At that point, Mystique had no idea (s)he was a mutant, or a metamorph; (s)he simply reacted as many normal folks would in similar circumstances. And in the process had something of a nervous breakdown, mental collapse. Which of course was a whole other story that will never see print. (I do seem to have a lot of them.)”
So then I started doing a lot of searching to sleuth this out. It's been a long time since I read the original Ms. Marvel run (and I did buy some of her original 1970s run...I think more because MODOK made an appearance than anything else). Not excusing the action, but it sounds like Ms. Marvel was dating or considering dating three guy, so he wasn't strictly speaking her boyfriend, but a potential romantic interest.
Something that's fiarly problematic is that I think the reason Mystique murdered him was because he was her pyschiatrist and she wanted his files...and he was committing a pretty huge ethical breach back then even considering dating/marrying his own patient. And you can't say 'it was different back then', because it was as much a breach then as now (a classic contemporary example would a Columbo episode where a psychiatrist murders to cover up that exact behavior). That aside, Destiny was pretty clear that Mystique needed to abandon her vendetta, but Mystique refused to do so, because she wanted to protect Rogue. Which, as you would expect, is what causing the prophecy to come true.
It's also interesting how the story where he is killed was written in the 70s but not printed because the title was cancelled, but not published until 1992 in Marvel Super Heroes.
I wasted a lot of time googling about Mystique and Ms. Marvel today, is what I am saying.
no subject
Date: 2016-09-09 06:49 pm (UTC)https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5034521.html
Regarding Carol dating her therapist; he was already her friend beforehand and she just went to him for help because she was having blackouts and migraines (due to Ms. Marvel being a split personality before). And I think the only thing they really talked about was her being a superhero, which he was worried about. So it wasn't like the usual relationship a therapist has with their patient.
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Date: 2016-09-08 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 11:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 11:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-09 12:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-09 09:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 11:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-09-08 07:42 pm (UTC)