Civil War II: Ulysses #4 - "Tower of Wisdom, Part IV"

[laughing_tree]

"The original Civil War was a fairly simple choice -- either obey the Superhuman Registration Act or rebel against it -- with one side pitted against the other. The two sides in this new one are much murkier -- there are all sorts of gradations and moral mazes involved." -- Al Ewing

Comments

[shadur]

... Scientific method: What happens when Ulysses has a vision and someone he talks to about it doesn't intervene?

Of course, most people wouldn't risk it because there's something terribly callous about observing the potential deaths of hundreds of people just to properly test a theory... But Karnak isn't most people. And this *is* a question that really should be answered.

[jlbarnett]

that is actually a decent idea

[shadur]

Aside from the part where hundreds of people are potentially about to die in a train crash, it's quite decent.

[randyripoff]

Ah, but they are not Inhumans, so they don't matter.

[wizardru]

It's simultaneously smart and terrible, which is kind of what Karnak IS, in a nutshell. Well played, Al Ewing, well played.

[nyadnar17]

Karnak is such an amazing character. I love him more every day.

This kinda test needs to be done, but if any other "hero" pulled this crap I would be losing my shit. But this is just Karnak being Karnak so I am cool with it.

[glprime]

True enough. I'm also much thinking like Karnak, "train accidents happen every day. What makes this one so significant? What about all the accidents that happened before you were born? what about the car accidents and plane crashes that will simultaneously occur while we divert services to avert this crash? Due you seriously expect us to stop everything from ever going wrong? It's a universe of chaos, kid. next you'll warn me the galaxies are going to collide in several billion years..."

[stolisomancer]

No one dies in a train crash like Gaston.

[glprime]

Again, I need an upvote or like button on this comm, STAT.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Loath though I am to say it, the first Civil War had far more shades of moral grey than this ne ever will.

It wasn't just about obeying the law, it was about letting the government define what it meant to be a hero. Registering meant that who the heroes fought could be decided for them. For guys like Cap and the X-Men (who, granted, sat it out), it's not hard to see the threat.

This? Seeing the future? Not so much. Especially given that the organized hero community has so many ways of confirming a threat without widespread lost of civil rights.

That is, of course, if Carol weren't freaki' glued to the damn idiot ball.

[laughing_tree]

How do you verify a threat that doesn't exist yet, that won't exist until some point in the future? The greyness is in how far you'll go to prevent said threat from coming into existence.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Because the threats he sees are pretty immediate, and law enforcement have been acting on tips since the beginning of law enforcement.

The idea seems to be that since the visions aren't 100% perfect, that they shouldn't be used at all. And that's bullshit.

[laughing_tree]

"Immediate" can be a pretty broad term. He saw the coming of the Infinaut a week in advance. A lot can happen in a week, especially in superhero comics.

That story also shows one of those gradations Ewing is talking about: Blue Marvel has no issue with responding to that kind of prediction, but he takes issue when the briefcase woman is brought in for questioning.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

So the heroes have some people on watch for a week. Again, so what?

Again, this wouldn't be a problem if Carl wasn't glued to the idiot ball. She handled the woman with the suitcase the dumbest way possible

[laughing_tree]

I'd say the "so what" is that putting someone on watch (or on a watch list) is very much one of those slippery slope things where you ask where to draw the line.

Plus, you assume preventing Ulysses' vision from occurring when he saw it occur means it won't still happen at a later date. Which is true for visions of certain kinds of accidents but not for intentional criminal acts. Any smart ne'er-do-well could just wait until the surveillance is over, then go ahead with what they were originally planning. So, what, you keep them under surveillance forever?

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Watching someone for a certain amount of time based on credible information that they might be involved in a crime isn't a slippery slope, it's police work 101.

As for criminals outlasting surveillance, that's highly unlikely given that 1) 90% of marvel criminals simply aren't clever enough, 2) there should be open arrest warrants for 90% of marvel villains anyways, given how often they escape jail and 3) they are no doubt breaking the law in the build up to their terrible act.

Arresting someone for a lesser crime when you can't nail them for a greater crime is prosecution 101.

Tony's opposition to using the visions places an impossible burden on law enforcement, that they be absolutely certain to an impossible degree before ever acting. It's bull. Cops act on tips all the time, and Ulysses' visions are that, boiled down.

The only way he seems reasonable, is to make his opposition be completely unreasonable. That' what Carol's doing, treating every vision as if it were a nail and she the hammer.

[laughing_tree]

Some of Ulysses' visions are not things where merely watching would be a sufficient response, though. To draw a real world equivalent, if the police were tipped someone was planning to murder his boss, they wouldn't just watch the person. If they watched in secret, it puts the boss at risk because they might not be able to respond in time. If they watched in the open, there's nothing to prevent the murder once they leave. Authorities would almost certainly have to do more than just watch in that situation, and that 'more' is where we get a lot of real world debate about what is and isn't appropriate. Which is not to say all 'more' is contentious -- few take issue with the core concept of bringing someone in for questioning, for example -- but not all of it is not.

As for 90%, well, saying 90% is another way of saying 10% are going to be a problem. 10% that are not necessarily breaking the law in the build-up, especially in a world where it's apparently not illegal for someone like Riri Williams to build a deadly Iron Man suit all on her own.

Tony and Carol are both being unreasonable, yes. The gradations -- the greyness -- comes from all the possible points in between those two poles. Again, take the example of Blue Marvel, who's okay with responding to visions but disagrees about the specifics of how Carol's doing it.