NoScans - Greg Ruck confirms what I think we've always known

[icon_uk]

...especially on scans_daily.

I'm actually a little surprised I'm the first to post this, but such is life.

In an interview with Comicosity, Greg Rucka confirmed that the Diana he and Nioola Scott are creating since Rebirth, is not 100% heterosexual!

And in other news bears do.... actually, no, this is important dammit, and deserves more respect that that.

I would strongly advise you to read the whole interview (actually, the whole article is interesting and does indicate some of the steps that DC has taken in terms of representation of late), but I think this is the bit to focus on for us;

Matt Santori-Griffith: I’m going to start off simple and to the point. The Wonder Woman that you and Nicola have introduced to us in “Year One” — is she queer?

Greg Rucka: How are we defining “queer?”

You’re applying a term specifically and talking to an ostensibly cis male (and white to boot), so “queer” to me may not be the same as it is to an out gay man. So, tell me what queer is.

MSG: Fair enough. For the purposes of this conversation, I would define “queer” as involving, although not necessarily exclusively, romantic and/or sexual interest toward persons of the same gender. It’s not the full definition, but it’s the part I’m narrowing in on here.

GR: Then, yes.

I think it’s more complicated though. This is inherently the problem with Diana: we’ve had a long history of people — for a variety of reasons, including sometimes pure titillation, which I think is the worst reason — say, “Ooo. Look. It’s the Amazons. They’re gay!”

And when you start to think about giving the concept of Themyscira its due, the answer is, “How can they not all be in same sex relationships?” Right? It makes no logical sense otherwise.

It’s supposed to be paradise. You’re supposed to be able to live happily. You’re supposed to be able — in a context where one can live happily, and part of what an individual needs for that happiness is to have a partner — to have a fulfilling, romantic and sexual relationship. And the only options are women.

But an Amazon doesn’t look at another Amazon and say, “You’re gay.” They don’t. The concept doesn’t exist.

Now, are we saying Diana has been in love and had relationships with other women? As Nicola and I approach it, the answer is obviously yes.

And it needs to be yes for a number of reasons. But perhaps foremost among them is, if no, then she leaves paradise only because of a potential romantic relationship with Steve [Trevor]. And that diminishes her character. It would hurt the character and take away her heroism.

Have to say, I do like that he asked how they were defining queer in context, just to make certain!

The whole "being gay does not exist in the sense we mean it" bit in another context would irritate me, but I can see in the context of the Amazons of Themiscriya, where millennia of an entirely female, immortal population would alter one's perceptions of relationship, it's a valid comment.

Your thoughts and opinions?

Comments

[joetuss]

Please forgive my ignorance, but isn't referring to gay people queer offensive? Im a hetero male and that term by definition seems a little off putting to me

[icon_uk]

It's a term which has had many different interpretations over the many years of it being in use (it was first used to refer to homosexual desires in the late 1800's), so whether it's appropriate to use or not depends, a lot, on personal reaction to the term and whether one associates it with it's use as a perjorative/insult.

There has been an attempt to reclaim the term since about the 1980's, and I believe that nowadays it is more commonly used to refer to a broader category of non-normative relationship factors; so could include gay, bi, poly, asexual or others.

However, there are those who dislike and reject the term because of it's long use as a perjorative so it's not exactly cut and dried.

[bruinsfan]

I think at this point, as with a lot of things, the context and tone of the speaker using the term determines whether it's offensive or not. It's a much quicker-to-use umbrella term than LGBTTQQIAAP(OMGWTFBBQ!) that's inclusive of everyone not heterosexual and cisgender, so when it's being used as an adjective rather than a noun it can be helpful.

[alicemacher]

For what it's worth...it's used in present-day academia, e.g. Queer Studies.

[joetuss]

Oh, ok...Thanks for taking the time to answer that.

[rainspirit]

There are definitely people in the LGBT who prefer the Queer tag. Erika Moen, writer/author of DAR and Oh Joy Sex Toy, is sexually attracted to women but is happily married to a man. Sexually is so fluid that Queer could be the equivalent of "It's complicated" on Facebook relationships.

[kamino_neko]

Erika Moen, writer/author of DAR and Oh Joy Sex Toy, is sexually attracted to women but is happily married to a man.

Probably more important to this situation, she originally identified as a lesbian. Then she met her husband. The reaction of those around her to that probably influenced her preference.

[locuatico]

Long story short: the LGBT+ community has tried to reclaim the word "Queer" at least since stonewall. Among the most numerous supporters of reclaiming it, there are those who are non-binary and/or do not identify themselves simply as "gay". meanwhile, the group that most strongly opposes reclaiming the term, by sheer coincidence, seems to involve a similar ocmposition as when they tried to act like "lesbian" was a slur and women should identify as "gay" too...

[joetuss]

Thanks for answering my question

[lb_lee]

Enh, folks have mostly weighed in, but it's actually easier for me to go by 'queer,' since I tired of having to argue with cis people whether I was "allowed" to be gay. (Since if I don't PASS as male, don't fit in in cis gay male spaces, well then, I haven't EARNED gayness.) Queer gives me an out without just getting forced into the straight box.

[bruinsfan]

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid bristling at his blanket statement that everyone needs a partner to be happy and to concentrate on the great news that the obvious prevalence of same-sex relationships on Themiscyra is being treated respectfully and openly for the first time rather than as coy titillation.

[leoboiko]

His statements could also be read as implying a regrettable view of "prison homosexuality" – there's only women in there, so logically they must be queer (situational sexual behavior is a thing, but very different from sexual orientation; a lesbian lost in an island full of men might decide to have a romantic/sexual relationship with one of them—Rucka's "only options" in this scenario—rather than being alone, but she's still a lesbian; behavior and orientation aren't the same thing). But, yes, overall this is progress.

[icon_uk]

I sort of add it in to the famous 1989 panel which George Perez and Mindy Newell used which has one of the Amazon's explains to a visiting reverend who asked about the Amazon's approach to sex, that "Some follow the path of Artemis (the Virgin) and Athena (the chaste) some choose the way of Narcissus, but most seek satisfaction and comfort in each other

[commodus]

Honestly, I thought it was a long established part of WW's character that she was into other women? After all, the Amazons from legend were of the same persuasion, weren't they? And I never really "got" the stories which paired her with say Superman or Batman. Likewise, I never appreciated Frank Miller's gross mischaracterisation of her as some strawman misandrist. But I always felt that given her environment, her native society, that she was a lesbian or bisexual.

In fact, her outlook on romantic relationships is very intriguing to me. Because she is not a human, she is a God, or at the very least a demigod. Would such a being ever have doubts as to the morality of pairing up with a mortal being who is many hundreds of years younger? It feels wrong enough when say Captain America does it, so how would a literal God feel?

[janegray]

Is Diana hundreds of years old, though?

I know that as an Amazon she doesn't get old, so the May-December trope is bond to happen if she dates a mortal. But every single origin story I've seen say that Diana was an actual teenager when Steve crashed on the island (or, at most, in her early twneties), her birth a very recent event in the island's extremely long history.

[lego_joker]

In the Lynda Carter show, she straight-up says to Steve (Junior) that she's about 2,500 years old, but continuity was never that show's strong-suit anyhow.

[leoboiko]

Out of universe, she was created by a bondage and submission enthusiast of early (more or less…) feminist persuasions who lived with two women in an open triadic relationship… in the 1940s. At the very least, I find Amazon queerness (in the wider sense, including but not restricted to homo/bisexuality) to be very much fitting for these characters, and in line with their original spirit.

[yap]

My sense is the closest we have to Marston's Amazons in today's media are the Crystal Gems from Steven Universe where they appear to identify as female in their physical forms. The show suggests them to be lesbians with the exception of Rose who was in an open bisexual relationship of some kind. The lack of men does suggest to me that some sort of sapphic normativism must exist in Themiscyria but I don't know if I'd consider it the equivalent of a situational homosexuality.

[icon_uk]

AFAIK The Crystal Gems have never had a concept of male and female amongst themselves, whereas the Amazons know about men, and are from a species which has them, but have lived apart from them so I don't think it's quite the same thing.

I'm not a major follower of SU, though I keep being tempted, but have seen the musical number, sung by a Pearl, in traditional male evening attire, singing a torch song abut the woman she loved, and her feelings for the man her loved one chose over her, and it's a legitimately manificent achievement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ussqi3nagrQ

[yap]

It's not a perfect analogy- particularly since the gems are alien as well but I feel like Marston's Wonder Woman when it was first published was something along the groundbreaking lines that SU is today plus there's a definite similarity in the stories of Rose Quartz and Wonder Woman choosing to be with men.

That is one of my favorite SU numbers too. Also, maybe a bit off topic but during the Golden Age, Zatara stopped a space war by getting these two alien queens to marry each other.

[korvar]

I don't believe the sexuality of the Amazons of legend was ever really discussed. In some versions, they meet up with an all-male tribe once a year for baby-making purposes, and give them all the male babies nine months later. Or they captured men to use as brood stock. Neither of those interpretations requires lesbian Amazons per se.

And "given her environment, her native society, that she was a lesbian or bisexual" makes as much sense as claiming there are no lesbians or gay people in our society, given how hetero-normative it is.

There are also various interpretations of Wonder Woman's age - in some cases, she's been around for thousands of years, in others, she was only born about 20 years ago. I'm not sure what the current version is.

I mean, sure, Island full of women, and everyone says "of course they're all doing each other!" It was certainly Marston's fetish. But just as it's possible for people to grow up in our largely heterosexual world and not end up heterosexual, any randomly chosen Amazon could end up with pretty much any sexuality.

[silverhammerman]

I think the whole thing is a nice sentiment and that Rucka has the best of intentions, but I'm incredibly skeptical about this.

A single interview with a single writer is pretty far from being canon/definitive. It's not like if the head of WB rolled out and said "Wonder Woman is bisexual now and forever, this will be reflected across all of our media going forward" or even having something happen on the page in the text itself (rather than being implied).

There's really nothing to stop the next writer from just quietly ignoring the idea and rolling things back, hoping no one notices. Hell, even if Rucka had definitively done something on the page, that still wouldn't be a guarantee: Remember when Genevieve Valentine had Catwoman revealed as bisexual last year? Yet to my knowledge we haven't seen reference to Catwoman's sexuality or her one-time girlfriend since that series ended. I've got similar worries about the new Constantine series, though I haven't heard anything about that one yet.

I like this statement, I really do, but I think it's being blown out of proportion and setting a lot of people up for disappointment.

[zapbiffpow]

Come on, now, that's just being given free pizza and lamenting how it's not from your favorite joint. It's just simply people being happy over this particular baby step. I kinda do agree on the 'out of proportion' thing, though - Rucka and Co. have to be careful to focus on book quality instead of relying on timely socio-political relevance to carry the entire work (which, considering Year One, apparently isn't a problem)...although it's been a while since DC got highlighted for stuff like this instead of Marvel, so I say what the hell. Gotta incentivize the bastards every once in a while so they know where to go.

[silverhammerman]

I should be clear, I think this is great and I'm glad to see it happening, I just have zero faith that it's going to see any follow through. I'm not trying to look down on people who are happy about this, I just feel kind of bad for them, because I know there's a good chance that DC will let them get excited and then utterly disappoint them.

I contest your analogy: It's not so much like complaining about free pizza as it's like being told that a pizza you ordered ages ago is almost at your place, but it's still not actually there and the place you ordered from has a history of simply not showing up, or showing up, letting you eat half the pizza, then taking it away and denying any knowledge of pizza.

[zapbiffpow]

Oh, no, for sure: it's not the circumstances of the pizza, it's just the complaining I'm taking issue with - no need to change or justify to that effect, if that's indeed how you feel. Except maybe this, which might be taken as contradictory:

I'm not trying to look down on people who are happy about this, I just feel kind of bad for them

[silverhammerman]

Yeah, probably could have phrased that better. Having seen this kind of thing before, watching people without that frame of reference get excited about it is strange. I must admit that there is a shade of "Oh you poor, naive summer child" superiority to my concern, but it's not so much about me thinking I'm smarter than these people, but rather my not wanting to see a bunch of people whom I like get disappointed.

We probably shouldn't get into a debate about the merits of being critical about this sort of thing, but I think it's perfect reasonable to be no 100% happy at this stage, given that literally all that we've seen on the matter is PR. When it's explicit on the page, I'll be happy to celebrate.

[zapbiffpow]

Kickass. I'll hold you to that.

[silverhammerman]

[bradygirl_12]

Now I'm hungry for pizza! :)

[tigerkaya]

I'm noticing a pattern with DC and its pursuits to make the established women of DC Bi. Harley,Ivy, Catwoman and now Wonder Woman. Which leaves me with one question why not go all the way with the established males next.

I think readers are ready for a Booster Gold and Ted Lord at this point.

While I don't mind Harley, Ivy and Diana being Bi Selina I find is a bit forced. I might be wrong have they shown hints of Selina being Bi?

[caivu]

They've done way more than hint about Selina; in one of the later issues of her last series, she kisses another woman, Eiko Hasigawa.

[tigerkaya]

I was reffering to as way back since her 90's comic to Brubaker and forward. I know about the kiss.

[espanolbot]

Not much that I can remember, though the absence of evidence isn't really the evidence of absence. For example, prior to Renee Montoya getting outed by Two-Face in Gotham Central she was written as having boyfriends in the past, which in the series was explained by them being beards due her wanting to present as straight for her extremely religious parents and the notoriously homophobic department in which she worked.

Similarly, although Selina has mostly been in relationships with men, that doesn't exclude the possibility of her being bi because a) just because she's bi doesn't mean she's somehow compelled to mack on everyone, and b) just because someone is involved with someone of the opposite gender doesn't mean they're not bi. See in reality people who say Angelina Jolie is straight because her most well known relationships are with dudes, or people who say that Freddie Mercury was gay because his most famous relationships were with men.

So yeah, I don't see anything wrong with how they handled the Selina reveal. Certainly better than Ice Man outing over in the X-Men comics (Jean Grey reads his mind and tells him he's gay, when he says that he might actually be bi, she shoots that down and insists that he's not... which psychic or not, that's kind of out of order there).

[tigerkaya]

Thank you for the reply it was illuminating usually II'm meet with pitchforks when I bring up the subject some seeing my comments negative. I will need to further understand the subject.

[mesmiranda]

I agree. All women and no men (so far) comes across as a bit "girl on girl is hot", if you get my meaning. Not that lesbian/bi/pan women aren't awesome and valid, but the disparity and the way it's handled can be off-putting. Fingers crossed.

[tigerkaya]

Thank you, that's my concern with DC and its approach to Bi and lesbians if its just for cheap partial nudity for the sake of girl in girl action. But if its handled with maturity, than I retract my fears. Also thank you all for your replies it has been quite illuminating.

[cricharddavies]

I think you mean Ted KORD.

[tigerkaya]

Sorry typing from phone. Spell check is a pain on this phone.

[bruinsfan]

I think readers are ready for a Booster Gold and Ted [K]ord at this point.

This reader was ready for it in the late 80s.

[lb_lee]

I know right, Booster and Ted helped me come out and DEAL with my sexuality. And for that, I will always own their action figures and an adorable button of them.

[lb_lee]

Heh heh, Ted Lord. Maxwell and Ted's kludgeverse love child. :p

[kates]

Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up with Wonder Woman at all--have Rucka & Scott actually definitely stated her queerness in-series? Because there's a difference between having a character saying "I like girls," the sort of Chris Claremont style subtext that was intended as queerness but could also be read as gals being pals, and a writer saying in an interview "oh yeah, she's totally gay" but that queerness is never acknowledged in-series?

[kamino_neko]

Define definite. It's on the page. Never described in so many words, but, IMO, shown in a way that's more than subtext.

Her first scene with Kasia could be written off as platonic (although she's not that way with any of the other Amazons), but combined with the bathing scene a few pages later ('[Diana] emerges like Aphrodite. Gods, she's killing me.' 'I thought she and Kasia...?' 'And Meghara, and Eyrayle.') it would be difficult to read it that way.

Gail Simone....

[7dialsmystery]

....Hinted pretty strongly the Amazons were gay and supposedly wanted to make Hippolyta and Phillipus an openly gay couple and it was nixed by DC. I think she's the one who made Achilles openly gay too and in a relationship with "Patrick Cleese". Not to mention Golden Age Wondy's bondage exploits.

< img src="http://gayleague.antonkawasaki.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/achilles03.jpg" alt="alternate text" / >

[sarahnewlin]

I remember they made Loki and Catman bisexual. They showed Catman....for only one panel. But like they never followed through with it. For either of them...