Amazing #600 page

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

IGN has a preview page of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #600. Daredevil talk to Spider-Man and says there are three women he loved who are dead because his secret got out, and I'm not sure which three he means.

http://comics.ign.com/articles/100/1003159p1.html





#600 might be give us more hints on "the genie going back in the bottle" regarding Spider-Man's secret identity. I'm interested in who remembers what regarding CIVIL WAR. If he never unmasked, why did Spider-Man stay on Iron Man's side until deciding the Negative Zone prison was wrong. (Wrong in "Spider-Man didn't want anti-reg heroes stuck in the prison for the rest of their lives" wrong, not "Blastaar overran the place during the prelude to the War of Kings and now has a shortcut to Earth" wrong.) I'm very curious what Spider-Man remembers post-Civil War, if no one remembers May getting shot.


Who are the women Daredevil is talking about? Now, we know the wife in the psyche ward is Milla Donovan. And at least one of the women on the list is Karen Page, although her death wasn't because Bullseye knew his secret identity. In fact, her death wasn't even because Mysterio knew DD's identity, if I'm remembering "Guardian Devil" correctly.

So, who are the other two women? I'm going to list some of Matt Murdock's favorite dead girlfriends, and why (maybe) they shouldn't be on his list.

Elektra: Getting beyond dead/not dead/Skrull, Bullseye killing her had nothing to do with anyone knowing Matt Murdock's secret. Bullseye just wanted to replace her as the Kingpin's top assassin. In that same issue Bullseye almost figured out Matt Murdock was Daredevil, but was fooled by a mannequin and Matt's voice on a tape recorder.

Glorianna O'Breen: Attacked in Matt Murdock's old apartment by a bad guy named Kruel, during a time when Daredevil had faked his death. She was thrown out the window to her death, and even had a "vision" of Matt/Daredevil rescuing her before she hit the ground and died. Even though Matt *thought* her murder was because someone knew he was still alive and Daredevil, it was unrelated. This was during the "Jack Batlin" era of Daredevil that most fans gloss over.

Heather Glenn: Girlfriend of Matt Murdock who committed suicide. In the issue where she died, Daredevil tried to figure out who "killed" her, but concluded she hung herself. This was right before "Born Again," IIRC.

That's about it. If there are more dead Matt Murdock girlfriends, I'm not sure who.

Comments

[shanejayell.insanejournal.com]

DD is catholic. He doesn't need to have been DIRECTLY responsible to feel guilty over it.

[savvy_sleek.insanejournal.com]

I forgot to mention that in my comment.

Catholic guilt will make you crazy, I would know.

[savvy_sleek.insanejournal.com]

After reading this preview I literally spent half an hour attempting to figure out which 3 women had died because someone knew he was Daredevil.

Karen Page perhaps? Her death was the result of that whole 'anti-Christ' hoax put in place by Mysterio to mess with Matt's head.

But I Lol'd at Matt's '3 women I loved died'. Ooookay, but Matt's 'loved' LOTS of women.

[lieut_kettch.insanejournal.com]

Ah, yes, the Matt Murdock Death Penis. Predating Kyle Rayner's by a decade.

[zechs27.insanejournal.com]

Kyle doesn't have a death penis. Just one hungry demonic fridge that eats a ton of his women.

[mullon.insanejournal.com]

Was Spiderman eating chocolate?

[sinisterlink.insanejournal.com]

lol. You need to pull the mask UP before you try to eat something, Peter.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Does Spider-Man remember that a woman he loved also died because his secret identity got out? If he does, I'd think his reaction to Daredevil's speech should be stronger than "what a buzz kill." So we've got two possibilities. Either Mephisto not only made everyone forget his identity, but he made Spider-Man forget that anyone ever knew it, or he not only wiped out the marriage, but he wiped out all of Peter's relationships.

[sinisterlink.insanejournal.com]

Ever since that whole storyline with Gwen having Norman's babies (ick, it still feels weird to type that), it's been canon that Norman not only killed Gwen because she was Spidey's girlfriend, but also because he just wanted to get rid of her since she was trying to keep the kids from him. So he basically would have killed her anyway, even without knowing that she was Peter's girl.

[skalja.insanejournal.com]

Also, Norman doesn't know that Peter is Spider-Man anymore, so does he know that he used to know and now doesn't remember? You'd think he'd have mentioned something by now. So irritating!

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

He's probably saying to himself, "Spider-Man is... Spider-man is... Damn, if only I had written it down somewhere."

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Here's the best time for me to retreat into my "If Stan Lee didn't write it, it's not canon" cocoon, which is actually better than the "nothing is REALLY canon" attitude that they have in practice, but if we're going to treat it seriously (you know it'll be retconned eventually, I know it, they know it), it really doesn't make sense to kill someone when you're trying to get something from her, and it makes even less sense for him to have left a note saying "Ha Ha, I've got your woman," (the pumpkin bomb on her purse) when she was the real target and not the means to strike at him.

But even if we can get past all that, I think it's more likely that Peter would keep thinking "She died because of me" then he would "oh, well. Not my fault."

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

Also, the Goblin grabbed Gwen from Peter's apartment.

[freezer818.insanejournal.com]

From what I remember and what's posted here, the only one of Daredevil's list that comes close to "Because my secret got out" is Karen Page... who was the one who let the secret out.

Shut up, Matt!

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

Well, Milla's in the mental hospital because Mr. Fear knew who he was.

[aulayan.insanejournal.com]

They've already, partially, explained what was going on with Peter Parker's identity.

He *did* revealhimself at Civil War. Just now, no one remembers it. If he unmasks in front of someone, they remember everything.

...You know, Like Wally West after the Spectre gave him his identity back.

[liliaeth.insanejournal.com]

with the main difference being that the Wally West thing was well written, this... just isn't.

for one thing, Wally was still lovable after the Spectre thing, Peter hasn't even been likable since BND started.

[harpiesiren.insanejournal.com]

Has Peter... forgotten about Gwen, or something :/

[greenmask.insanejournal.com]

About bloody time, if he has..

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Why? Because the characterization of him as an unfeeling jerk wouldn't be complete otherwise? Seeing the woman you love killed right in front of you isn't the kind of thing you forget, ever. It's something you learn to live with and move on from, but not something you ever get over.

[greenmask.insanejournal.com]

No, honestly I've stopped believing in peter as a character post-mephisto, and I'm tired of gwengwengwen from a noisy faction of creators.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

So what you really object to is bad writing? I can go along with that, though I think some fans are oversensitive on this point. It seems like, "How DARE they suggest Peter might have really loved Gwen or been happy with her. Mary Jane is his only ONE TRU LOVE." Peter loved her, she died, he's going to carry that with him all his life, but he moved on and fell in love with Mary Jane. Why is that so hard for some people on both sides to comprehend? It's like no one has ever been in an adult relationship, lost someone they loved or felt a human emotion before. Granted, it's worse when the writers (I can't call anyone not named Lee, Ditko, or Romita a creator) do it because what they write is canon-at least until someone changes it-not just easily ignored internet complaints or fanfiction. Have Peter mention her when it's appropriate, like here, don't go to her for gratuitous angst, and never play that "who did Peter love more" game. It's fine that he's with her in House of M, since her not dying is a reasonable result of him saving Uncle Ben, but the end of Sins Past practically made it canon that he loved Gwen more, which is something that should never have been spelled out.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

[greenmask.insanejournal.com]

Pretty much, I guess. And no problem on the rant! :]

I also (childishly, I guess) have less patience with Gwen-based stories because my Spider-Man is the Animated Series version, where Gwen appeared once: in a parallel universe. Leaving, yeah, MJ as One Tru Love, basically.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

I guess we all have our perspectives. I was already reading Spider-Man when Gwen died, so while I accept Mary Jane, understand how Peter could love her, and even like some of the relationship/marriage (After all, I did also see the transition into the relationship with MJ), there's still a part of me that sees her as the one who came after Gwen. Sure, it's the 7-year old kid who was just discovering comics, but I'm not sure I have a better sense of what makes a comic book good now than that kid did then.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

How did the end of Sins Past make it canon he loved her more?

I had a very good friend who committed suicide, and when I think of him, he is more important than my annoying husband or ex. But when he was alive, he wasn't the one I wanted to be with, otherwise he'd probably be still alive today. I think you're confusing grief and regret with the everyday love we require to make a relationship last.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

When he thinks he's talking to Gwen and telling her he loves her and he's actually saying it to Mary Jane. The way that scene is set up gives the impression that in his mind, Gwen is the one he really loves (We're shown him saying "I love you" to Gwen and NOT MARY JANE), which is silly. It's not a competition and hasn't been one for over 36 years.

When Gwen was alive, she definitely was the one Peter wanted to be with. While they weren't shown as officially being engaged, Peter did, at least once, mention them getting married as though it were mutually understood that it would happen. But you can't marry a dead woman, at least not under the comics code, so he went on with his life and found someone else that he loved. How are you supposed to quantify both loves and compare them?

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

What a silly question. You have to resurrect her, of course!

::waiting for the MJ/Gwen catfight/makeup sex patiently::

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

I bet some people have been waiting over 40 years for Gwen and MJ to have makeup sex.

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

......

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

Wait a minute. I don't think anyone's complaining about Peter remembering Gwen or even claiming that he loves MJ more. I think the problem people have is with the whole "Saint Gwen" thing, where the writers try to argue his love for Gwen was deeper/purer/whatever while ignoring MJ.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

There is that, there's also complaining about the "Saint Gwen thing" any time Peter remembers Gwen. Like I said, some people complained about him being married to Gwen in House of M, even though it could logically follow from his greatest desire. Recently, I was told on another forum that Peter didn't really love Gwen because, at that time, he "didn't know what love was."

[sir_razorback.insanejournal.com]

Ok, it's buging me too much and I gotta get it off my chest. This has already been posted before, BUT the original post wasn't tagged right so there was no way to check the tags and find out. Turns out there was a small and growing tag set that was spiderman instead of spider-man. =) If you're not sure about what version of a name to type in, check the tags here (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/tag) and see how it's done. I'm not trying to sound bitchy or anything, just seemed like a good excuse to point it out.

[salamangkiero.insanejournal.com]

let's see...Karen, Elektra...did Typhoid Mary die? does she even count?

Man, Matt's really going for the Catholic guilt right thar.

[statham1986.insanejournal.com]

Somehow, Mary's.. 'vagina dentata' cancelled out Matt's Death Penis. She's still alive.

But this was posted the other day and somehow named each of the three woman dead because of him. Karen's one, Elektra's another (given the whole Skrull-business, who knows if Matt knows she's alive or not), but I'm not certain who the third is.

[halloweenjack.insanejournal.com]

Heather Glenn. She's mentioned on this page (http://www.sideshowtoy.com/?page_id=2815&utm_source=productpage_&utm_campaign=product_media) in a list of Matt's squeezes.

[salamangkiero.insanejournal.com]

wow, just read that. Matt really has a killer dick, so to speak.

[xandertarbert.insanejournal.com]

Wait, in Dark Reign Norman is pleased he's never washed his Goblin costume, because it still smells like "death, blondes, and victory." So he should remember who Gwen Stacy is. If he remembers that, it should be easy to figure out who Spider-Man is. And if Gwen Stacy is still canon, Spidey should bring that up with Matt.

Goddamn I hate Marvel right now.

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

No no no no. You see, now Norman killed Gwen because he wanted to take their Goblin Spawn as his own. It had nothing to do with Peter.

No, really.

[jackissuperfly.insanejournal.com]

The current explanation for the Devil Spell or whatever is that no matter how awesome their logic is, they can't quite piece it together. So they know he unmasked, but can't remember his face. Norman probably knows that he knew it before, and he knows that he killed Gwen, and he might even know that he killed Gwen to piss off Spider-Man, and it's not impossible that he knows that Gwen was Peter's first love and the only one he'd never want to live without, but no matter how he approached the problem, he can't make that tiny jump to Peter being Spidey.

I fully expect some author to come along and make everything I said into vile lies, but I think they're true now.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

It's bad writing. However, I do believe that if asked what killed Karen Page, Matt would say, "Drugs!"

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

Ohhhhh. This would be wonderful if only I could ignore the writing. Spidey/DD and JRJR, two of my favorite things!

But.

[ar_feiniel_.insanejournal.com]

I feel like this is more of Marvel beating us with "See, we're right, now STFU."

See, if Daredevil throws out some reasoning for why it's good for him and Spidey not to (re)share their identities, then we readers obviously should shut up and go along with it.