Secret Empire: Brave New World #1

[flint_marko]

By Paul Allor and Brian Level.

Comments

[starwolf_oakley]

Namor is a jerk. Film at 11.

[nyadnar17]

Honestly I am with Namor on this one. Like I know those two don't have a nation, or a business, or a family to have to watch out for but come on. Show some consideration.

Namor most like hopes they will "escape custody" and go on their way, but its pretty telling they didn't even consider the position they were putting him in.

A Leader's duty is to his people

[blue_bolt]

A King's job isn't to sacrifice his people to free another nation.

If they want to fight Hydra they can, but there's no obligation for them to do so.

Re: A Leader's duty is to his people

[starwolf_oakley]

Namor's actions make sense. He has all of Atlantis to worry about. He's just being a jerk about it.

[long_silence]

Honestly Toro's being more of a jerk. He was belligerent with the Atlantean guards, judgmental and insulting of the worshipers in the Temple of Ophion (when their stance of "just sit back and let the surface dwellers destroy themselves" seems pretty reasonable), and yelling at Namor for not sending his country into conflict with what is essentially the entire United States military.

[michaelsaint]

If Atlantis is a neutral nation then why are they arresting Jim and Toro?? I thought the definition of neutral is that you don't help either side??

So was this seriously just a trap to catch Jim and Toro? That's lame. If you were going to feign to be a neutral nation to catch the other side off guard then you could have done a lot more damage than just catching two guys before blowing your cover.

This honestly makes no sense and seems to be written just to make Namor more of a jerk which is so tired that it honestly is a trope. I mean, I can't think of a Marvel event in the last decade where Namor has been involved and hasn't had a uber-jerk moment like this.

Its as if Marvel won't let Namor be nice because then he would just be a version of Aquaman who can fly. But why is that so bad? Aquaman is pretty bad-ass and a version of Aquaman who could fly would be even more bad-ass.

Marvel has reinvented a ton of their characters over their long history but for some reason Namor hasn't changed since like WWII. I can't figure out why.

[flint_marko]

I don't think it was a trap, he didn't know they were coming.

Namor isn't siding with HYDRA, but he doesn't want to give them a reason to nuke Atlantis either.

[michaelsaint]

But doesn't arresting Jim and Toro give those opposing HYDRA a reason to attack Atlantis???

Call me crazy but helping one side of a conflict to the disadvantage of the other doesn't seem neutral to me.

[flint_marko]

He doesn't have to worry about the other side nuking Atlantis.

[shadowpsykie]

he knows they will most likely escape. and I am guessing, the other people who are in prison with them are people like Namorita or others that he can't "help" directly....

I realize I am giving him far more credit than I probably should.

[miramira]

Possibly, but I hope you're right.

[thehood]

I think you mean Namora, since Namorita seems to be still dead.

[scorntx]

Hold on... I thought Namorita got better?

Wasn't she in the last New Warriors series?
Or did she die again at some point?

[thehood]

It was a new Atlantean character showing up in the last New Warriors book.

[long_silence]

Namorita was brought back in Richard Rider's Nova book before he died through time travel
War of Kings and Thanos Imperative ended and she was never sent back to her own time on panel.

That new Atlantean character that you mentioned, Water Snake, was apparently identical to Namorita and even had the same voice. She was apparently given a mission by Namora to find Namorita on the surface world.

There was an article about how Water Snake's story would have resulted in Namorita's permanent resurrection if New Warriors hadn't been canceled.

[thehood]

Right, but she wasn't seen since and people still treat her as if she was dead.

[jcgamer78]

She did appear in the group scene of the expanded New Warriors roster in that book's last issue. It could be just a glimpse of what Vance wanted for the future of the team, or something that did happen and it was their official pre-Secret Wars roster.

[long_silence]

If Jim and Toro were forced to come all the way to Atlantis then chances are they couldn't make their way to the resistance in Las Vegas, and the resistance couldn't send anyone to pick them up.

Chances are that those opposed to Hydra are too stretched on resources to afford a fight on two fronts if they attacked Atlantis

[mastermahan]

No, you're completely right. This is the definition of non-neutrality, understandable reasons or not.

Perhaps we're supposed to interpret Namor's claims of neutrality as him lying to himself? Alternately, perhaps his agreement was that Atlantis would help Hydra in certain matters, and that part of Hydra Cap's concessions were that Namor would be allowed to *claim* neutrality, and thus save face and political power?

Or maybe he's just a dick.

[q99]

It's conditional-neutrality-under-threat. They get to live, but under the condition they don't provide sanctuary, I believe. They, flipside, don't have to go after anyone not in Atlantis or such.

That's my read. It's a sucky position, but aside from Namor himself and a few other individuals, their defenses aren't too strong due to prior conflicts, they would be wiped.

[starwolf_oakley]

Marvel has reinvented a ton of their characters over their long history but for some reason Namor hasn't changed since like WWII. I can't figure out why.

John Byrne "revealed" Namor has an oxygen imbalance in his brain due to his hybrid nature. Thus he can go "Avenging Son" at certain times.

(From SuperMegaMonkey.net)

[michaelsaint]

This is an awesome scene.

Also makes me wonder how cool Namor would be if a writer gave him better morals because, unlike Aquaman, living in the Marvel Universe automatically puts Namor in the top 2-3 based on powers/abilities. I mean, flying isn't his strongest ability and he is even a pretty fast flyer.

[thehood]

Namor isn't supposed to be like Aquaman, he's not nice.

Namor, is a jerk with a heart and his top priority has always, always, been the safety of his kingdom and his people. He's an Anti-Hero.

Besides, the main SE book shows Namor turns against Hydra anyway.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Have Namor and Aquaman ever squared off? I forget.

Practically writes itself, though.

[burkeonthesly]

They have, in the Marvel vs. DC crossover. If I remember right, they fought a little hand-to-hand, then Aquaman dropped a whale on Namor, Namor picked it up and kicked Aquaman's ass.

[wizardru]

There are a lot of times when Aquaman is very much Not Nice. But I get your point.

[q99]

-Marvel has reinvented a ton of their characters over their long history but for some reason Namor hasn't changed since like WWII. I can't figure out why.-

Because he works, I'd say. Generally-good-but-jerk Namor has let him been used in all kinds of story positions since, well, World War 2!

He's been an undercover ally in Dark Reign. He's been a staunch defender of his friends often enough. He's been part of the Fantastic Four, opposed to T'challa...


-If Atlantis is a neutral nation then why are they arresting Jim and Toro?? I thought the definition of neutral is that you don't help either side??-

They're neutral under threat, meaning the other side is able to set terms. It seems conditional on them not providing sanctuary. I.e. if they see Jim and Toro swim past Atlantean waters, they shrug and go, "Oh well, good luck!". If they come in to the middle of Atlantis and ask for sanctuary it's more, "Crap. Sorry, we gotta maintain the terms of our neutrality."

[thehood]

I wonder if Jim is still mad the Squadron Supreme had killed Namor.

[silicondream]

The funniest thing here is Namor rage-facing and decking Toro with a statuette he picked up...even though a genuinely angry Namor could shatter a human skull with a tap from his little finger. He was making sure he didn't hurt the guy! When Namor hits you with something softer than adamantium, he's basically hitting you with a Nerf bat for your own good.

[gnarll]

Between Atlantis and the Mutants... How many nations are HYDRA intimidating ? Seems to me unless they provide some big benefits, they are going to find themselves facing an alliance of lesser powers who don't really want to be picked off individually.

[shadur]

... Wait, is this Imperius Rex Namor basically going "I have to do what the horrifyingly evil people want or else they'll hurt my people?"

I distinctly recall him attempting to submerge significant portions of every coastal state for just suggesting that such a threat might be made in the past.

But hey, event, I guess. Hail Hydra, welcome our new really-not-Nazi-honest-we-just-should-have-won-the-war overlords.

[wizardru]

That threat would have been made years ago, before beings came along and lifted a city out of the ocean and killed him, just to make a point that they felt he was a dick. It also would have been prior to his entire country going to war with Wakanda and the fallout from THAT.

And that was not factoring in Hydra-America, which has state sanctioned 'dreadnoughts' flying around that are scary enough to force a Hulk to seek cover, combined with the military might of the Avengers, a fleet of SHIELD helicarriers and who knows what other tech...and then add to that the entirety of Hydra's capabilities.

Namor deciding that 'Okay, let's just be Switzerland...for now' seems like a pretty reasonable stance and in-character for him, given his long-standing fear of protecting his people and country, IMHO.