The Ultimates Squared #7 - "Purgatory"

[laughing_tree]

There’s this weird double standard the alien races have for Earth, which seems to be caused by a clash of pop culture tropes and metaphors. So on the one hand, Earth is seen as a bit backward and unevolved, but on the other hand, they’re really dangerous and sooner or later someone should get around to blowing Earth up before these humans do something too crazy. -- Al Ewing

Comments

[q99]

This is... really good.

[katefan]

Maybe the writing's good, but the art is trash. Can't Marvel afford decent artists any more? Is this what you get when you pump out ninety titles a month?

[drexer]

Would you like the Default Comic Art of Jim Lee™, or the Shiny Colours of Standardized Styles™ then? Maybe something with a null personality? And a Big Mac and Fries with that?

This negativity of mine is to say that this art might not be the typical of the superhero genre, but that does not make it "trash" and the artist "not decent". You might not like it personally, but there's no reason to attack the artist like that.

If I did a similar reaction to all comic book art that I do not like, it certainly would be a lot of spam on a lot of regular posts.

[katefan]

It's a fair point.

[drexer]

How so? Is there really such clear errors and mistakes in the art above that make it "trash"? Because I can see how one can dislike its art style, but not how one can argue that it does not do its job properly.

[laughing_tree]

Yeah, you've hit on what always gets me about these sorts of comments. I understand complaining about art you don't like, but the stuff that typically gets picked for this kind of calling out... when there's so much blander, lifeless stuff out there.

It's like, "*This* is what provokes you to speak out? Not the endless soulless cootie cutter Jim Lee clones drowning in their masculine power fantasy, which you can't throw a stick without hitting a dozen examples of? Not the garish computer coloring that's the death by a thousand gradients, which I see everywhere? Those, people on scans daily don't say anything about. That you have no issue with, but this you do?"

[drexer]

I mean yeah, it makes me feel like an asshole generalizing sometimes, but I remember when I went to my comic shop and the She Hulk comic by Javier Pulido was coming out and I commented with the owner the negative reactions the art was getting and both our responses were a summarily dismissal of "pfffft... americans".

It's an unfair assessment to generalize to a single country, but it's a consequence of the US comics market being still so centralized and standardised that most consumers of superhero comics end up having a very negative reaction to any kind of art which works outside its confort parameters.

And that's really sad, because I want new and different art and depictions which have different abilities of depicting different emotions. The 3rd panel on the penultimate page depicted here is particularly poignant and well done for instance, both due to the use of trace, colour and background that it transfers very quickly and humanly the feelings of Monica and their reactions to the situation where another art style might have needed a longer conversation.

And I want more of that not less, and constructive criticisms helps it, but negative feedback just because it's different makes me sad.

[mrosa]

The 3rd panel on the penultimate page depicted here is particularly poignant and well done for instance, both due to the use of trace, colour and background that it transfers very quickly and humanly the feelings of Monica and their reactions to the situation where another art style might have needed a longer conversation.

Yeah, well, let's not give the Eisner award to the artist so quickly. I think comic book art has degenerated to such an extent that a midling artist gets high praise for doing something any second-rate artist in the 1980s would have done without breaking a sweat.

Also, aren't you praising the artist for things that are probably the writer's responsibility? I doubt it was the artist who decided whether this needed a "longer conversation" or not. It was probably this simple in the script:

Panel 1: Close-up of Monica doubtful.

Panel 2: Captain Marvel is facing Monica, looking nervous and hopeful.

Panel 3: Close-up of Monica looking [add whatever emotion Monica's facial expression is meant to convey here.]

And the artist just drew it. This is pretty basic visual storytelling, boringly cinematic, with a linear layout, like camera shots changing from one speaker to another. I see nothing remarkable; it's bland, unspired, and hardly a step above Jim Lee and his legion of copycats.

Now imagine this actually drawn by George Perez, John Byrne in his prime, Steve Erwin, Jim Aparo, Ron Lim, Walt Simonson, Alan Davis, etc, etc, etc.

[laughing_tree]

Also, aren't you praising the artist for things that are probably the writer's responsibility? I doubt it was the artist who decided whether this needed a "longer conversation" or not.

You can't really make generalizations like that without being part of the creative team. Plenty of comics are much more collaborative, even ones that are ostensibly "full script." In fact, from an interview with the writer of this very series:

"She’s got a unique style in terms of comics, something reminiscent of Aubrey Beardsley, allowing for some much more intense emotional beats. She’s also not afraid to break up panels, set her own pacing, and make suggestions. [Regular ULTIMATES 2 artist] Travel [Foreman] does that as well, and it really helps take the book into that collaborative space where it’s unique to the team."

Plus, any writer worth their salt tailors the script to their artists. So even if the script specifies the single panel, it's because Ewing knew the artist could pull it off, whereas he might have sprung for a "longer conversation" with an artist who couldn't as effectively and succinctly pack that emotional punch.

Now imagine this actually drawn by George Perez, John Byrne in his prime, Steve Erwin, Jim Aparo, Ron Lim, Walt Simonson, Alan Davis, etc, etc, etc.

Most of those names are great and I prefer them to Aud Koch too, but they are inarguably also much more conventional, very much drawing within the lines of a 'proper' superhero house style idiom. The exception is Simonson, whose heavily stylized modern style *also* gets the sort of "it's different, so it's bad!" criticisms the other poster and I are talking about. I can't speak for the other poster, but that's my main lament here. It's not about the merits of Koch's work specifically, so much as fandom's allergy to off-beat styles that dare to not follow the narrow prescriptions of what superheroes 'should' look like.

Luckily, it's an allergy that the publishers themselves have less of, and one they're stepping more and more away from. Yeah, there were a lot of great artists in the 80s, but also definitely much more of a house style. One can find more probably stylistic variation within the most recent Scarlet Witch series than you can within Marvel's entire 80s superhero line. You never would have gotten someone like Michel Fiffe on a central Marvel book. Which... well, you still won't get that today, but we're closer to that possibility than ever before, at least.

[mrosa]

You keep talking about a "house style" without explaining what you mean. Sorry, I don't read minds. What I do do is look at comic book art from different artists and compare it, and I have serious difficulties seeing many similarities between the artists I listed. In fact, they're so distinctive one can learn to tell who drew what just from looking at the artwork. As for this Aud Koch, her blandness and genericness gets lost amidst her many current colleagues.

I also regret that you insist so much on Koch's ability to pack an emotional punch as a cause for gigantic celebration. Do you think artists in the 1980s didn't pack it? Do you not think that so many storylines from that decade still ressonate today because the artists managed to convey raw emotions too? I'd have thought that was a basic requirement for any artist, not a unique gift only a privileged few possess.

[laughing_tree]

"I have serious difficulties seeing many similarities between the artists I listed."

I have no doubt of that, for the same reason you don't notice the ticking of a clock or your own heartbeat. You've lived with it for so long that the commonalities are just a given, the invisible default. So they're invisible to you and you only notice the differences. But show those artists to someone who, say, mainly knows comics through manga and isn't really familiar with superhero fare, and they'll tell you: "Hey, it all looks so similar." (And vise versa, too, if you show a bunch of different manga to a superhero fan.)

"In fact, they're so distinctive one can learn to tell who drew what just from looking at the artwork."

Is this some great achievement? One can say the same for countless artists, good and bad ones. Artists who can't be told apart are the exceptions.

"Do you think artists in the 1980s didn't pack it?"

Sigh. No, I don't think that.

"Do you not think that so many storylines from that decade still ressonate today because the artists managed to convey raw emotions too?"

Also, no.

For someone who says he doesn't read minds, you certainly try to, and make a bungle of it in the process.

[mrosa]

You got me; I can't tell one manga artist from another; and I have scarce appreciation for them. I do love European comics, which seldom indulge in superheroes, and nobody can say they're all drawn the same way. Maybe Manga is the problem, with its industrial demands to churn out lots of pages per week out of a production line. It's like Henry Ford used to say, "The car can come out in any color, so long as it's black." Superhero artists, in the past anyway, tended to prefer anything but black.

I realize that at this point you think I'm some poor brainwashed comics reader who can't enjoy anything past the art he was exposed to as a kid, and you're right. But even I can see the difference in quality between John Byrne and Jim Lee, or Jim Aparo and Rob Liefeld, or Paul Gulacy and Ian Churchil. Maybe the problem isn't my conservative tastes; maybe Koch just isn't technically impressive.

Feel free to like Koch; you obviously have unusual tastes, if you also like Fiffe. If my mind reading is shabby, perhaps my clairvoyance is sharper, so let me predict right now that Koch will never make a name for herself as a great comics artist. Let's see what the future says.

[laughing_tree]

"Superhero artists, in the past anyway, tended to prefer anything but black."

Oh, but they did, just a different kind of black. The shared lineage among guys like Perez and Byrne is obvious once you took a good, hard look at works that are separate from that lineage, like manga or, as you say, a lot of the European fare.

I mean, books like this were able to exist for a reason: https://www.amazon.com/How-Draw-Comics-Marvel-Way/dp/0671530771

And a lot of today's stuff, both terrific and awful, is still part of that lineage. Which isn't a bad thing at all. But today there's also more stuff than ever, both terrific and awful, that *isn't* part of that lineage. And that's wonderful. Like I said, you can find more stylistic variation in the recent Scarlet Witch series then among Marvel's entire 80s superhero line, probably.

...Wait, you don't like Fiffe either?

[thehood]

So if someone likes an artist you don't, it's their taste that's unusual?

And you do know that art is subjective, Right? By the way, your clairvoyance is as bad as your mind reading, you prediction seems to be based on your own bias. No offense.

[thehood]

Did Koch kick your puppy or something? Why does it bother you if some praises his work? Does it hurt you if someone likes Koch's work?

[balbanes]

It's a little weird that you're criticizing someone for attacking an artist, right after you... attack a different artist. Just saying.

[drexer]

Couple of points:

a) That's kind of my point. I don't really enjoy Jim Lee's art style and most of its derivatives, but I am not going into each and every thread of similar art and call it "trash" and "not decent" because it goes against the styles that I prefer. It's a portrayal with its strengths and weaknesses in depicting characters and actions, and it can good or badly applied in various ways. I personally don't like it, but technically it's a sound creation and it would be unfair of me to attack it like it was "trash", just like the art above might not be the more usual but it is done with a purpose and consistent level of detail to achieve its intended goal.

b) I'm not really "attacking an artist" though? It's not wrong to say that Jim Lee's style influenced a lot of the art that we've seen for the past 20 years of comics, specially at DC. And that has its weaknesses and strengths, one of which is that its standardization makes it somewhat banal and common in the current comics environment, and can be expected as a default portrayal, as common as say a "Big Mac", a meal which can has a small degree of variance in its quality, but has a consistent portrayal all across the world.

[mesmiranda]

For myself, the jawlines on the characters are really distracting. It's like everybody's been handed the Lantern Jaw of Great Justice™.

(That said, the panels with Monica are gorgeously fluid and beautifully inked.)

[thehood]

You do know you can criticize a work without insulting the artist, right?

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Ya know, I'm still confused as to why the space heroes simply don't ditch the front lines, if Hydra Cap's force field really is all that.

Let the space lemming have at it, while they regroup with big brains and find an actual way inside. The chiti are pretty much Borg without the tech, after all.

[donnblake]

I mean... is that not what they're doing here?

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Not really. They tried to recruit Big G t bring it down, and Monica tried to get through herself.

The narrative keeps treating them as if they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, without considering simply ditching

[donnblake]

Okay, yeah, rereading I see they're squaring up to fight the next Chitauri wave.

And someone should remind Galactus- what are the odds that he's going to need a bunch of the people on Earth right now to help him deal with the whole Logos thing? Historically, I'd say pretty good.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Yeah, the tactical thinking here is pretty odd.

Sure, Hydra Cap is bad, but roach aliens are worse. Big G bringing down the field would get them inside to help, but if the roach aliens outnumber the Annihilation Wave (ugh), then they would have only ten minutes to stop Cap before the world ended.

Hunger Strike!

[blue_bolt]

There's no reason for them to stick around. The Guardians of the Galaxy are off looking for help, the heroes above the shield should just go find someone who can make a wormhole or has limited time travel abilities. We know the shield can't be prevent FTL travel in the solar system because the Chitauri keep coming. So they should just leave someone there to contact them and head to a planet that probably can help.

What, are they doing a hunger strike in protest of Hydra up there or something?

Re: Hunger Strike!

[laughing_tree]

They're sticking around because a lot of them don't have the travel capability to really go anywhere else, especially after the injuries and equipment destruction of the Chitauri waves. And the ones who can go somewhere else aren't going to leave behind the rest fend to off the next wave themselves. Of particular note, they need to defend the Alpha Flight space station, which is the only thing protecting a lot of folks from the vacuum of space. It's all clearer in the full issue.

Re: Hunger Strike!

[bruinsfan]

Yeah, I gathered the heroes out in space were just fighting Chitauri that were heading for the Alpha Flight station, as blowing the main group up before they crash into the shield would be pointless.

What's supposed to be powering the shield, anyway? Cosmic Cube fragments?

Re: Hunger Strike!

[long_silence]

Why not just have America Chavez evacuate all of the AFSS personnel and injured to the Ultimates' deep space base/Taa II?

Galactus says he won't get involved, but why not crash at his place while they recover and try to come up with a plan?

[thehood]

You'd be wrong going by today's issue, Galactus's Eternity Watch doesn't have a single earthling and doesn't need one, since all of it's members are guys at his level.

[donnblake]

Huh. A major cosmic event not centered largely around Earth and Earth based heroes? Color me impressed.

[thehood]

Where else can they go? Many of them can teleport and they have to protect the non powered Alpha Flight folk at the station.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Star Lord et all steal a ship, they step out of the way while alien roaches run into the bug zapper. Chill on the moon while they regroup.

[shadowpsykie]

this is weird, but I would really love the final fight to be between Not!Cap, Cap, Ms. America, Deadpool, and Miles....maybe even Quake in revenge for colson.

[thehood]

If you mean America Chavez, i don't think she can be involved.

And by "Cap", do you mean Sam Wilson? Since he's Captain America again by the time of the endgame.

As for Quake, she blames Deadpool for Coulson's death and will be going after Deadpool in the post SE books.