NS: Jonathan Hickman confirms Fantastic Four was cancelled because of Fox

[cyberghostface]

 So lately there's been some dispute as to whether or not Marvel's cancellation of the Fantastic Four and the subjugation of the X-Men line and related merchandise had to do with Perlmutter's vendetta against Fox.

Well according to Jonathan Hickman...

"I think it’s pretty common knowledge at this point that Marvel isn’t publishing Fantastic Four because of their disagreement with Fox. While it bums me out, I completely understand because, well, it isn’t like they’re not acting out of cause. Fox needs to do a better job there."

Well it's up to you to decide whether or not Marvel cancelling their longest-running comic as a 'fuck you' to Fox is 'acting out of cause'. As a bonus, here's the cast from the recent FF movie being blown up in a Marvel comic. Because Marvel isn't petty about this or anything.

From The Punisher #12.

Comments

[thehood]

Well the movie was terrible and kinda ruined the F4 brand at the time. Besides, absence makes the heart grow fonder, when the book does come back, it will probably be a big deal.

[cyberghostface]

Marvel shitcanned the comic and took down all the merchandising for FF months before the movie came out so there's not a lot to indicate that the movie would have even hurt the brand to begin with.

[locuatico]

From what i recall, the movie movie had bad press since day one. WHile some were cautiously optmistic at the start, by the time the movie was released and reviews called it... not nice things... that was more a formality than anything.

[cyberghostface]

I remember there being behind the scenes stuff with Trank and whatnot but a lot of it was just wank over there being a black Human Torch.

Regardless the upcoming Inhumans show is getting awful press at very turn to the point that everyone's doing damage control and Marvel is trying to suppress early negative reviews. But I'm pretty sure Marvel won't cancel the Inhumans titles once the show turns out to be a disaster.

[locuatico]

And rumors of them changing Doctor Doom into some sort of Blogger (I believe this one wasn't true? Don't know. would have to watch the movie to know...).
Tank reportedly being offered to direct a Star Wars movie but being rejected because supposedly he was a mess to work with.
Supposedly telling everyone to not read the comic material.
Fox having to do a lot of damage control.
the first official images getting look-warm reception at BEST.

And yes. the Racists did everything in their power to tell you how it would be garbage solely because Johnny was black in this version. I can assure you, most of the support the movie received was to spite the racists, not because people had high hopes for this movie.

[cyberghostface]

I was following the movie as well and I don't believe for a second that any of those controversies damaged the brand to such an extent that would warrant cancelling anymore than DC would have reason cancel Green Lantern because that was a stinker.

The long-rumored reason which Hickman confirmed was that Perlmutter had a meeting with Fox that didn't go to his liking and his response was to shitcan the series and all related merchandise.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/06/30/marvel-comics-claims-the-fantastic-four-was-cancelled-because-it-didnt-sell-but-marvel-two-in-one-could-bring-it-back/

But again... if this is Marvel's excuse... that the FF movie being a stinker is reason enough to actually cancel the title, then I look forward to seeing all of the Inhuman titles cancelled once the show falls flat on its face.

[locuatico]

oh absolutely. Marvel did it out of spite. Nobody is arguing that.
Point is, the movie release was little more than a confirmation of what a lot of people already suspected.

[cyberghostface]

Well thehood was suggesting that the film hurt the general brand for Marvel which is what I am contesting.

[locuatico]

I do agree with them to a point (thus, in the long run may have been a good idea for Marvel)

[thehood]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. When the F4 finally do come back, it will likely be a big deal.

[bruinsfan]

Yeah, the movie looked like a steaming pile to me for most of the lead-up process (I think there was one early trailer with a body horror slant that made it look like it might be for an entertaining movie), and I regarded Michael B. Jordan's casting as a pro rather than a con.

[thehood]

Yes it did, the F4 reboot had negative press from the start, it's why no one went to see it, remember? You forget that everyone could tell it was going to be a shitshow.

[cyberghostface]

I didn't forget anything. You say it damaged the brand. Did the movie cause sales of comics or toys to drop?

[thehood]

Sales for the F4 books were rather low at the time. On the other hand, this hasn't been an issue for the X-Men, their in a position where Marvel can't get rid of them regardless of what Perlmutter wants.

[cyberghostface]

I'm not asking if the sales were low, I'm asking if the FF film damaged the brand.

[thehood]

You did ask about sales in the post i was replying to. Either way, the clearest evidence is the fact that the X-Men are still around even though Perlmutter would love to remove them too, but he can't.

On the other hand, the F4 brand was damaged enough where they had no problem removing them.

[cyberghostface]

Your initial comment was "Well the movie was terrible and kinda ruined the F4 brand at the time."

As if the movie had any effect on the brand. When there was no evidence it did. For that to be the case there would need to be a specific correlation between the movie being a failure and the comic being cancelled. Something like "Batman and Robin was so bad the Batman comics plummeted 20 spots".

[mizerous]

It won't come back until the rights to the characters in the film does...

[thehood]

Don't be so sure. They still make X-Men books after all and i'm sure Perlmutter wanted to ax them too.

For that matter, Perlmutter won't be around forever and he's the issue.

[theflames]

X-Men are simply too big a part of the Marvel comics universe, very hard to cut. The F4 are very easy, it's a pretty self contained part of the MU and almost all of their villains have branched out into the MU and rivalled off with other characters.

Cancel the X-men and the MU feels a lot emptier, unless they decide to reshuffle the a lot of the characters into other books and that defeats the purpose. Plus, they're trying to pressure Fox into giving back the rights, they're not going full blown kamikaze, just cutting and pushing where they can with the least damage to themselves. If you had to make the decision, cutting F4 over the X-men would be the obvious choice.

[owlbrigade1]

I'm gonna be controversial here, and I'm sorry but genuinely do believe this, I think that canceling Fantastic Four was a good thing anyway. The two people left who I liked from FF in the comics were Ben Grimm and Doctor Doom, and one of those was the villain. The baddie was more likeable and more relatable than three quarters of the heroes, especially our lead hero, and that has to be a problem. Everytime I picked up a FF comic it just always seemed to have Reed being an asshole in it. I fell out of FF fandom way back and was only an occasional reader by the time they were canned, but there was nothing in those occasional reads that made me want to be a regular reader again. If anything it just made me feel more bitter about the entire Marvel brand, that they had taken something I used to love and made it something so horrible instead.

Maybe a few years on hiatus will allow the brand to comeback stronger again at some point in the future, a renewed sense of purpose and renewed storytelling, and I think there are a few other Marvel titles that could do with being rested due to running out of steam and being assholes doing asshole things (X-Men, for example).

[lego_joker]

Really, one could argue that F4 had outlived their usefulness by the '80s or thereabouts... that, if I remember right, was the Space Race's last gasp. After that the USA (and the rest of the world) pretty much decided there was nothing interesting Out There and decided to focus all their collective efforts on the Down Here, and the explorer pretty much fell out of fashion as an action-hero archetype (heck, nowadays the word is pretty much treated as a "polite" substitute for colonialist/imperialist).

[wizardru]

I don't buy that, personally. The explorer-adventurer is still very much an active archetype (just flip on the Travel/Smithsonian/National Geographic/Science channels to name a few). Reed Richards has as much in common with the Mythbusters as anyone in comics, really. The Waid and Weiringo run showed that you could still do that sort of material, be true to Lee/Kirby's vision and yet still do a modern take.

I mean, by that argument, a lot of characters in comics are based on archetypes that have since passed their immediate cultural relevancy. The Punisher reflected the popularity of the vigilante film in the early 1970s (Dirty Harry, Deathwish, etc), Luke Cage was grabbed from Blaxploitation films and Iron Fist and Shang-Chi were both grabbed from Kung Fu movies (as well as Blade and the whole Dracula series grabbed from the 70s enthrallment with the supernatural). Beyond that, good characters should outlive their origins and the FF have had some titanic runs since the 80s. Both Waid and Hickman have had some stellar work, as have some of their work on the Marvel Knights run.

[crabby_lioness]

I love everything the Fantastic Four stands for, and hate most of the runs it has had. Most writers couldn't handle the Fantastic Four unfortunately. I'd rather they handle it like the Young Avengers, and only bring it back when they've got a top flight writer who can handle it.

[icon_uk]

The "House to Astonish" podcast had an interesting discussion about the FF and this subject in their most recent episode.

[full_metal_ox]

This Cracked article is also sadly relevant (and the 1994 film is one we can't even legally see, because lawyers):

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/4-signs-best-fantastic-four-movie-was-made-20-years-ago/

[full_metal_ox]

The Marvel Bullpen Kills the Marvel Universe.

[filthysize]

That issue ended up being very prophetic because the movie bombed but Michael B. Jordan survived and has been welcomed back into Marvel.

[jetblack927]

I'm praying Disney/Marvel and Fox can make up and do the same deal they did with Sony (Sharing or whatever) and the FF get shoehorned in after the Infinity War (Like Reed Richards comes outta nowhere with the Ultimate Nullifier and saves the day)...Then they'll do a "Fantastic Four: Homecoming"

I know, I can dream, can't I?

[cyberghostface]

FF might work but I can't really see X-Men working in the MCU right now and I think Fox is hitting their own groove with movies that Disney would never make (Logan and Deadpool).

[liliaeth]

This might just be me, but I think the X-men work better set in a different setting, than the mcu. Because if you put them in the mcu, there's always the question of 'why do people hate mutants, but not superhumans, and how do they even know the difference'

[silverhammerman]

I think that in a very real way, the X-Men/mutants don't need the Marvel Universe. Sure it's fun to see them interact, but not only does the whole mutant mythology make more sense on its own, but it's broad enough that there doesn't need to be a whole lot of other stuff.

Which is why I always roll my eyes at people clamouring for the movies to cross over: Marvel stands a lot to gain there, but Fox is just fine on its own. I'm glad that they're finally waking up about the possibilities beyond just doing Bryan Singer's painfully generic mainline X-Men movies, because there's so much material for them to draw on.

[informationgeek]

Explains why I didn't see a single bit of FF advertising at Islands of Adventure at all today.

Not a lot X-Men stuff either from what I saw too.

[zylly]

Without the Fantastic Four, there would literally not be a Marvel Comics. Not publishing them feels like disrespect of the highest level.

[wizardru]

I agree on one level, but I think that terrible runs on the FF do them as much a disservice or more than simply not publishing them for a while. I understand why Marvel is being petty about this, even if I think it's counter-productive. Marvel made a mistake years ago and not unlike Alan Moore's situation with the Watchmen, Fox will not relinquish the rights to the FF pretty much EVER. That they're trying to make a Doctor Doom movie without the FF shows that.

The best possible situation at this point would be for them to collaborate like Sony did, but Fox still hasn't come to that conclusion (possible due to their success with the X-Men).

[zylly]

I would definitely love to see the FF in the MCU. A Thing-Hulk fight is long overdue.

I've enjoyed the last few FF runs, but yeah, if they're going to bring them back now... they need someone who'll just hit it so far out of the park you can't see it.

[thehood]

Though the circumstances that led to the Sony/Marvel agreement is not something that is likely to happen with Marvel and Fox though.

[silverhammerman]

Hickman's still only offering his opinion on the matter, its not an official confirmation, though it is nice to see someone from Marvel say it instead of toeing the company line.

As for the treatment of the Fantastic Four, I'm kind of over it. They've never been my favourite property and I'm generally of the opinion that the less "importance" a publisher placed on a franchise the more likely it is to be actually interesting, so I don't mind them being away for a while. That being said, Marvel could easily support a somewhat low selling FF book given some of the stuff they put out currently, and the FF aren't flawed by any measure, Hickman himself had them functioning as a multi book critically acclaimed series for years, Marvel's talk about readers not connecting is clearly disingenuous, it's all about the execution.

I'll admit that I was briefly suggest in by the suggestion that the four mysterious figures from Disney's big Infinity award reveal might be the FF rather than Thanos' boring lackey children. As it stands though, I don't mind Fox taking a run at an FF movie every few years, I have no expectations whatsoever, so maybe eventually they'll do something interesting.

[thehood]

I don't know, they don't have the best track record with the F4, even if i did enjoy the first film. It kinda feels like they just make the films to keep the rights and not out of a desire to make a good F4 film.