Ultimates 2 #100

[history79]

Comments

[locuatico]

Okay, something i will give the Ultimate Universe designs is that I can almost always tell when it is the Ultimate Iron Man suit.

[onsokumaru]

I wish Ultimate Cap, Thor and Wasp could replace the 616 versions. I find them more entertaining.

[goattoucher]

Ugh. Ultimate Cap is a dick.

I appreciate that 616 Cap's eternally shining virtue can get tiresome, but UltCap's just a goon. He's more like 616 US Agent.

[jlbarnett]

I think that's overstated. Ultimate Cap is a bit more jingoistic but that's it

[balbanes]

No. The idea behind Ultimate Cap is to take someone with a WWII black-and-white mentality and see how he reacts to a less absolutist world (spoiler: not well). Ultimate Cap is a moral simpleton: he defines people as either "good" or "evil," then reasons that any brutality against "evil" people is justified, cowboy-movie style. This worked fine in WWII when those he deemed "evil" were literally Nazis, but it works less well when the "evil" is, say, Thor or Hank Pym.

[jlbarnett]

I read Ultimates 1 and didn't get a feel of his fighting Hank Pym being bad. Fury and co were worried about how it would play but that was it. Ultimates 2 whatever their justifications the bad guys were very bad

[rainspirit]

Jan giving him a dressing-down over it was well-deserved. She didn't ask him to do it, she didn't think it improved the situation at all, and it showed how much of a brute Steve could be. Ult!Cap humiliated Hank Pym for little more than male ego.

[jlbarnett]

Ultimate Cap beat up Hank because he committed attempted murder and then went on the run.

[cyberghostface]

Bwahahaha I love how how people are still pissed over that line from 15 years ago. Especially when it was a Scottish writer deliberately taking the piss. Still it goes to show you that comic would never be made by Marvel today. Or if it did someone would tell Cap to check his privilege right after.

[locuatico]

You mean the highly inaccurate line that someone from WWII (without the influence of the decades that followed) would likely not have said? No, actually they would point Out France has proven to be the better country because they had the Sense to not elect the person supported by literal nazis...

[cyberghostface]

I take it then that in the Marvel universe Trump won the popular vote, didn't have interference from another country aiding him in his success and doesn't have people resisting every move he makes?

[locuatico]

[insert joke about Norman Osborn here]
Seriously though, France did have interference. But sure
Lets also nota pretend Spencer didn't recently make a SJW caricature and act like Marvel wouldn't have published a (poorly aged) story were one of the character attempts a one-liner that falls apart the second you think about it.

[cyberghostface]

I'm not endorsing Cap's line and I don't think Millar would either anymore than he would the neo-con stuff Hit-Girl says. Millar was clearly anti-Bush if you read his UXM arc or what he had planned for Authority. But a scene like this is the equivalent of having someone get upset at ASBAR's Goddamn Batman line.

[thehood]

It sounded like you were, since you said you loved that pissed people off and don't seem to understand why people think that line was ridiculous.

[cyberghostface]

Then you inferred incorrectly.

[thehood]

Then you should have made that clearer.

[cyberghostface]

I did.

[thehood]

Not really. It's not hard to see why people find that scene to bad and mock worthy.

[cyberghostface]

And far more people find 'The Killing Joke' or 'The Dark Knight Returns' to be horrible. So what?

[q99]

I certainly wouldn't have a problem taking a shot at it just like thos, it's *still* a memorable bad line.

[thehood]

It was more than that, France and the US were allies and WWII vets have constantly criticize those that would call the French cowards.

And Mark being Scottish doesn't really justify him using inaccurate stereotypes in his stories and the reason the line is made fun off is because of how stupid and xenophobic it is. They even made fun of it in Nextwave.

[cyberghostface]

When Hit-Girl said "a Democrat is someone who wants to kill babies and hold candle light vigils for murderers" are you going to criticize Millar for inaccurately stereotyping Democrats or recognize that the character is supposed to be absurd?

This article pretty much sums up what he was going for.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/on-the-uncomfortable-brilliance-of-marvels-the-ultimates.html

[locuatico]

I would argue Kick-ass is an intentionally absurd series while the Ultimate Universe (at least at the start) promoted itself as more "realistic" and "grounded", thus readers expecting more accuracy should not be surprising.
I would also argue, if that was his intention, he failed miserably by having someone who was in the unique position to be able to deliver said critique be the stereotype we have of WWII soldiers and fell flat on the "we are more progressive than generations past" depiction we often have.

I, personally, find both dumb lines that lack any sort of meaning or critique or at least no more than the joke of Betty thinking The Hulk eating an alien alive is hot as hell.

[thehood]

I'll criticize it for being a rather stupid line, yeah.

And what he was "going for" is irrelevant when he failed in the delivery. Had he done it better, people wouldn't be criticizing that scene to this day.

[cyberghostface]

Whether or not he failed is completely subjective given the initial Millar run was very well received and still is today. That some comic that no one will remember in a month took a shot at it doesn't change that.

[matrix_dragon]

This bit is actually pretty clever. When the Maker recreated the Ultimates, they were set up the way he saw them as. And the Maker is an arrogant ass that sees everyone as morons that don't understand his true genius. They were cliches of themselves. Hulk was even worse with his first few lines, with the phrase 'nice guy' used. They were the clumsiest parts of the Ultimate universe given form. But then more of who they were started to come through. Memories, complete personalities, character growth... And the Maker lost control of them.

[jlbarnett]

I do wonder if that bit about Tony Stark using alcohol in his blood to power nanites that control his armor was true before they were swung over to the MU or this was a case of him adapting to it.

So the Multiverses from before, the Second was obviously Jack Kirby but I'm really not sure about the rest

[starwolf_oakley]

Yes, the "nice guy" bit was probably a reference to "The Hulk went on a rampage and killed 800 people because Betty Ross friend-zoned Bruce Banner."

[tigerkaya]

Oh if only 616 Cap was there to beat this asshole to the floor bloodied. Alas he's being written by a hack SJW trying to vent his political BS tempertantrum views.

I look forward to Spencer's resignation.

[beyondthefringe]

I think you're getting a little personal with the Nick Spencer attacks, here.

[locuatico]

dude, do you even know what an SJW is supposed to be? (both actuals and as strawmen?) because they completely despise what he did with Cap...

[shadowpsykie]

I hope Miss America KICKS HIS ASS... I HATED that line... it's what made me hate Ult Cap