Catwoman's Answer to Batman's Marriage Proposal

[history79]

"Some people are going to think, ‘Oh, my gosh, he’s gone insane, we need to fix him.’ And others will go, ‘He’s gone sane. We finally have a Batman we’ve been looking for.’ Most superheroes, you make them happy and you end conflict - you give Spider-Man a wife and where do you go from there? But Batman’s the opposite: You give him happiness and you create conflict, because he’s fundamentally a sad character."

- Tom King

Source: https://www.newsarama.com/36667-dc-spoils-catwoman-s-answer-to-batman-s-marriage-proposal-ahead-of-batman-32-spoilers.html

Comments

[kalanyr]

I feel like this can't possibly last very long. But let's see if King can make this work and stick.

[beyondthefringe]

And when they feel that marriage and a child age Bruce too much, they can just have someone shoot Alfred. Then Neron will offer to heal Alfred in exchange for Bruce and Selina's marriage, and poof, back to basics.

As a bonus, no one will remember Batman's secret identity, and Silver St. Cloud will also be back from the dead, after a vacation in Europe. (Is she even dead? Does anyone know or care?)

[kalanyr]

Considering Bruce seems to have been involved with half the females in his approximate age group in the entire DCU it's probably not hard to find one who's dead even if Silver isn't.

[crinos]

According to Wikipedia, she was killed at the end of Widening Gyre when her throat was cut by Onomatopoeia.

EDIT: Okay,. looking more into it, and apparently the book ends on a cliffhanger, with Onomatopoeia beginning to cut her throat. So I don't even know if she's alive or not.

Edit 2: And just reading it, this miniseries sounds like the dumbest thing ever, because it has Batman teaming up with a new Gotham Hero called Baphomet, and he and Batman become best friends and stuff, and at the very end its revealed who Baphomet is. So apparently Batman got hustled by a second rate Green Lantern villain (And I say that as someone who likes Onomatopoeia, but seriously him fooling Batman? What the shit?)

[kalanyr]

I kinda wanna know if that's in continuity or not now. The initial publication date says probably not, but the plans to continue it in 2014 say maybe, but that didn't happen, so is that a no ?

[crinos]

Well it ends with Batman and Silver getting engaged, and Onomatopoeia holding her at knife point, and I think if that happened it would have been mentioned somewhere afterwards, since I think if Batman got engaged, and/or his Fiancee was murdered, there would be some mention of it SOMEWHERE.

I like to think that after what happened with The Killing Joke, all writers of short Batman stories are required to add a little note saying whether or not its intended to be in canon or not.

[qalchemist]

Everyone knows she faked her death and then sent her side lover, Elmer Fudd, after Bruce Wayne.

[lissa_quon]

Oh yea - that WAS Silver St Cloud in that one.

So...I guess that solves THAT continuity issue. I guess...maybe...

[q99]

Green *Arrow*, yea.

And Onomatopoeia gets treated as a surprisingly big deal for his schtick.

[crinos]

Yeah Green Arrow.

And I think its mainly because, like taskmaster, Onomatopoeia is usually smart enough to stay within his power bracket: He mainly goes after non powered, low profile masked Vigilante. Green Arrow was probably his most high profile target (Well, at least before Widening Gyre, and that seems to be super not canon).

I mean from just what I read, this whole scenario requires Bruce to have a Idiot Ball surgically attached to his spine.

[remial]

And when they feel that marriage and a child age Bruce too much, they can just have someone shoot Alfred. Then Neron will offer to heal Alfred in exchange for Bruce and Selina's marriage, and poof, back to basics.

don't even joke about that!

[scorntx]

It'd never happen.
Alfred will outlive everyone.

Everyone but the roaches and Aunt May.

[balbanes]

Ehh, this is DC. They reboot their whole universe every couple years, no OMD needed. I think they're scheduled to reboot yet again after the Watchmen crossover.

[icon_uk]

"you give Spider-Man a wife and where do you go from there?"

I dunno, ask Marvel, who made it work for 20 years without too many problems.

"But Batman’s the opposite: You give him happiness and you create conflict, because he’s fundamentally a sad character."

Is he? He's driven and committed, but I wouldn't say he's sad, if he were he couldn't have built the family around him that he has.

[kalanyr]

Being sad and inspiring aren't mutually exclusive. In many ways it's shared grief that has brought Bruce's allies together to prevent others suffering. Though I don't know if sadness is the right term. Melancholy maybe ?

[an_idol_mind]

Personally, I prefer a Batman who is not a sad character, but rather one who took a major tragedy and turned it into something beneficial to society as a whole.

One of the reasons Adam West's Batman is my favorite is that his version of the character actually succeeded in making Gotham better, while most other takes have Gotham remain a hellhole no matter what Batman does.

[crinos]

I've always liked the idea that Bruce does the Batman thing mainly because of his dead parents, but also because deep doing being Batman is really super fun.

I mean remember at the end of the Justice League cartoon episode Injustice for all, that little smug smirk Batman gives after punching out the Joker and revealing he had been playing the Injustice Gang the whole time? That is the smile of a guy who loves his job.

[q99]

Yea, like, that's not his conscious reason, but if he *didn't* find it fun he'd have collapsed into a nervous mess eons ago.

[janegray]

Most superheroes, you make them happy and you end conflict - you give Spider-Man a wife and where do you go from there?

Because we all know that there is no such a thing as conflict when one part of your life is a source of comfort, even when the remaining 98% is you fighting tooth and nail to save lives from homicidal maniacs.

And while we are expressing the not-at-all insane thesis that having a close loved one means there can't possibly be conflict anymore, can somebody elucidate why having a wife is a no-no, but having an aunt/mother figure is okay? Doesn't May make Peter happy too?

[an_idol_mind]

As a husband and a father, it always boggles my mind when writers imply that having a happy family makes poor drama.

[laughing_tree]

But every superhero has that 98%. What made/makes Spider-Man distinct is the soap operatic conflict in his personal life.

Aunt May, when she doesn't know the secret identity, furthers the conflict because Peter has to juggle his responsibility to her with his Spider-Man responsibilities. When she does know the secret identity, it arguably does present the same problem as a wife, which is why most takes on the character have her not knowing.

[janegray]

Thing is, I grew up reading Spider-Man comics during those 20 years or so he was married. In fact, he got married before I even learned to walk. So, for me, the forced soap operatic conflict is not something I naturally associate with Spider-Man, nor something I want to. My Spider-Man didn't have that, and I liked him best for it.

The things that made Spider-Man unique for me were these.
1)The marriage. Spider-Man was one of the extremely few superheroes who were married (off the top of my head, the only one I can think of in Marvel was Mr.Fantastic, and even then Reed's situation was different because he and Sue were a couple with children and who have the same job. Scott Summers is often a widower, and anyway, even when Jean or Emma are around, again both superpowered people surrounded by kids), and that set him apart from the crowd, gave him sources of drama virtually no other Marvel superhero had.
2)The quips. Spider-Man is funny. The only one who came close was Deadpool, but Deadpool's humor is darker and meaner.
3)The street-level heroism, "the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man." In theory Daredevil has something like that too, but in practice Matt's life is so hellish that it feels less like heroism and more like masochism. Luke Cage has something similar too, though Luke's situation is heavily influenced by race issues, so not quite the same.
4)The lack of economic means. Usually, the Parkers were outright poor: Peter because he kept bailing on good jobs to be Spider-Man, MJ because she kept bailing on good jobs to stay with Peter.
5)The focus on somewhat believable science. Peter used his knowledge of chemistry and physics to defeat his villains. That set him apart from both other "normal" superheroes, and from miracle workers like the Fantastic Four.

For me, saying that Peter's hook is being a bachelor feels like a massive downgrade.

Similarly, I am very, very bored with the portrayal of aunt May as frail old lady who must remain oblivious of Peter's secret identity. I simply don't enjoy "Load" characters, period. I thought she was much, much, much more likeable when she knew. If making her an active participant erases the problem of keeping her from knowing, it adds the problem of keeping her useful despite her very limited abilities. That usually translated as some kickass moral support Alfred-style.

I recognize that people who grew up with an unmarried Spider-Man might say "my Spider-Man was unmarried and I liked him best for it." Different strokes for different folks. But I honestly believe that the married take is objectively superior, the natural and far more enjoyable evolution of the character.

DC tried breaking up Clark and Lois because some writers, who had grown up with the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle, thought that was the best take on the characters. But eventually they took it back, and I believe Superman is far better off for it.

[laughing_tree]

I was two years old when Spider-Man got married. I grew up with married Spider-Man. Please don't assume that it's only through nostalgia that anyone could come to see the merits in unmarried Spider-Man.

And I think it's simplifying the issue to say people against the marriage think his hook is "being a bachelor." Most heroes are bachelors, after all, as you point out. Rather, the thinking is that his hooks -- juggling responsibility; that sense of being alone against his obstacles, without a powerful team or expensive resources to draw on; the soap opera -- align more with him being single than married.

[janegray]

Fair point about my assumptions. Sorry about that.

However, if some people think that a single Peter is more interesting than a married one because they find the "completely alone against the world, total lack of any support to rely on" narrative more appealing, then they should actually say that.

I personally very, very strongly disagree with that position, and would have been just as vocal in my protests of One More Day. However, I would have at least been able to see where they were coming from. Their position would have been on the very opposite corner of mine and I would have strongly objected to it, but I wouldn't have called it crazy. Just... different. Completely different, but reasonable.

That's not what people said, though. Every single one of Marvel writers and editors, as well as virtually every OMD fan I've talked to until now, kept pulling those ridiculous excuse: "there is no conflict in marriage, getting married equals the end of the journey, being married means you are old and therefore uninteresting." Which are claims I'm not psychologically equipped to respond to without breaking a desk with my forehead.

[laughing_tree]

All I can say is that your recollection of what editors and writers said differs from mine. Nothing I said was original thinking on my part. It's all stuff I've seen former Marvel creatives bring up when talking about the marriage, though maybe not in those specific terms. No conflict in marriage = quick sound byte shorthand for "no soap opera conflict in marriage." Soap opera being one of the hooks I mentioned earlier.

[janegray]

If "no conflict in marriage" is just a quick sound byte shorthand for "no soap opera conflict in marriage," why do people bring it up as if it made it impossible to write Spider-Man stories at all?

"You give Spider-Man a wife and where do you go from there?"

He frames it as if there were no more stories that could possibly be told.

Aside from that, it's not even true that marriage entirely takes out the soap opera element. All it takes is a Namor-like character to rock the boat, pretty easy stuff. Mary Jane is gorgeous, no doubt plenty of guys think she is too good for boring old Peter who keeps getting fired from all kinds of jobs and who probably hangs out with bad elements ("oh my god have you noticed that huge bruise Peter was trying to hide? Again? A wife like that, and that dickhead goes hanging out with thugs!!!")

A more skilled writer could even exploit the well of frustration that is bond to develop in even the most loving and faithful couple when certain life choices impact the quality of life. Mary Jane was a model, and she gave it up to be with Peter, in a crappy house they have to share with his mother figure and where the fridge is often empty. Even if she is completely devoted to her husband and would lie down her life for him, maybe sometimes when she lies awake in bed at 3 am and he is still out there doing god knows what, maybe she allows herself to remember her past glamorous life and wonder "what if...?" And Peter, Mr. Everything Is Always My Fault, do you not think Peter would feel guilty? Maybe even feel self-hatred for clinging to MJ while knowing that pushing her away would hugely improve (material) things for her? And what if his feelings occasionally slip into a "I know what's good for you better than you do" attitude? And MJ gets understandably pissed because she is a grown-ass woman who can make her own decisions, and if she decides that she'd rather live in poverty with Peter than married to a millionairie in Hollywood, that's her damn business?

Tl;dr: there is plenty of soap opera conflict to be found in marriage, if you write it as a realistic marriage rather than a TV commercial.

[q99]

This is part of why I like indies with long term relationship.

Fred Perry's Gold Digger. Britanny (bodyguard to her adventure archeologist sister) met Stripe in the first miniseries, got married around 30 of the B&W. Around issue 50 he joined a superhero team.

It's now issue 270 or such, and while they do *sometimes* argue (often about time management- and often with other people, since they get called on missions/expeditions it's hard to find them-time- they've never broken up. Well, they were stuck in different dimensions for a couple years, but that's different. They have a kid, and she's awesome and learning to be an adventure-archeologist herself. Her sister Brianna got married some 10-20 issues back. They have friends who were married from the start. Their parents are always married.

It *does not* view marriage as a burden.


Or, heck, Adam Warren's Empowered. I don't know if the Emp/Thugboy relationship will last forever but I love it and I root for them to be happy, it's not a burden, it's a bonus.

[janegray]

Yeah. This is also why I love manga. Can you even imagine Vegeta leaving Bulma? The scene where he says that he has been able to grow so strong because his wife is a genius who creates the best training and fighting equipment, I literally squealed XD

[q99]

That's one awesome part of DB, I wish it was more common in manga- not that many take a cue off of it oddly enough, most series are focused on dragging relation commitments out to the finale*. Though Boruto being a sequel series have marriages by nature....


*Heck, even some relationship manga like Oh My Goddess pretend the characters aren't married til the end.

[janegray]

Anyway. I'm glad she said yes. I love Bat/Cat :)

[zachbeacon]

Disappointed she didn't respond with a "Hell yeah, Kite-Man!"

[nightauditguy]

Will Damian get along with his new stepmom? Will Talia try to stop the wedding?

[informationgeek]

Oooooh, there's something worth exploring in a comic.

Also, we got Super Sons with Damian and Jon... do we get a mini-series now called Super Moms where Lois Lane and Selina Kyle/Wayne team up to save the day? I mean... that sounds awesome and would be fun.

[scorntx]

It'd never happen, because the only thing Selina could do as a mom would be to die so as to motivate any children she might have to become a vigilante themselves.
(As opposed to being some kind of grouchy yet awesome mentor, because that would be cool.


... actually, that'd make an interesting version of Batman: Beyond, come to think of it...)

[mister_terrific]

Or Earth-2's Helena "Huntress" Wayne.

[freezer]

"you give Spider-Man a wife and where do you go from there? "

Twenty years of mostly solid stories where the worst of the bunch tended to center around trying to break Peter and MJ up?

[byc]

"But I'm still gonna flirt with Wonder Woman and Poison Ivy."

[thenicochan]

I'm assuming Selina and Bruce said this at the same time. >.>

[adriantullberg]

"Selina, I understand you and Diana met earlier today?"

"Yeah ... full disclosure; the slightest chance I get to get into those star spangled panties? I'm taking it."

"... just ... just record it for me if I'm not there ..."

[thenicochan]

Thus an understanding was born.

[sarahnewlin]

What happened to her baby. And where's Holly?

[freezer]

I assume little Helena got retconned by Flashpoint/New 52/Rebirth. I think that one's for the best. Given the way they handled her paternity reveal, it's either Selena having a kid with a comparative non-entity* or actually having her be Bruce's kid, then having to explain to Sam and Bruce why she lied.


* At least when Crystal cheated on Quicksilver with J. Random Salesguy, they had the good sense to quietly shuffle him off to limbo, rather than deal with his presence.

[shadadukal]

HELL YES! And I hope it sticks for a long time!