Batman #32 - "The War of Jokes and Riddles, Conclusion"

[laughing_tree]

That sets up a Batman I want to read. That sets up a Batman whose pain comes from guilt, not just from inaction. I think a lot of us, when we think about the worst parts of our life, we think about ourselves being involved in them. It’s not just the pain that was done to us but [also] the pain we caused ourselves. In looking at Batman and making him more human and raising the stakes of the series, I wanted to bring out that guilt. -- Tom King

Comments

[lordultimus]

This is what makes him break his vow of no killing? The Riddler kills an innocent child and he loses it? What about all the other families and innocents that the Joker and Riddler murdered? It just smacks of inconsistency.

I can sort of understand the Riddler’s obsession to make the Joker laugh again. It makes sense that he sees it as a riddle, a challenge.

[nyadnar17]

I love it. Maybe I am in the minority but I am with King on this one. What usually makes you(well me at least) lose emotional control is the shit I didn't see coming.

Its not the horrible bs you expect from life or awful people. That stuff you kinda expect and can deal with. Its the little petty shit or unexpected cruelty that really drives me over the edge.

It not about breaking through my guard so much as it is sneaking past it that really makes me lose my shit in a way I am ashamed of latter.

[locuatico]

no. It's more the sudden realization of riddler's motive for doing so.
It wasn't revenge because Kite-Man had "betrayed" him (which he technically didn't) that, while awful, you can understand it as "how this world is".
But Riddler telling him to his face that he did it... he did ALL of this... just to make some joke that isn't that funny.
I can believe a still early-on Bruce being pushed by that kind of stuff and regreting it afterwards.

[lucean]

I'm in agreeance with you as this just felt like a really cheap way of trying to have Batman go for the killl here, especially considering what Batman has endured in other stories. Yeah, the Riddler doing what he did is a surprise, an insanely stupid one, but it doesn't even feel like the worst thing that has happened in the Batbooks just in the last few years.

[fra080389]

Maybe it was "it isn't about you" to really drive him over the edge :P

[cyberghostface]

I like the idea of "Riddler wants to make Joker laugh" (and Joker 'saving' Batman) but the thing is this Riddler has almost nothing in common with any other canonical incarnation of the character I've seen. So he just comes off as being a new character. If you want to see a good reinvention of the Riddler as being a threat but still being recognizable as the Riddler look at 'Gotham' or the 'Arkham' games.

Also "Batman almost killed someone" really doesn't faze me as being "his worst sin". In Hush he he would have actually killed Joker had Gordon not intervened at the last minute and I can't imagine there hasn't been a whole number of similar cases.

[locuatico]

what is supposed to be different is that, at that time, Bruce was deeply emotionally affected by the "death" of his (totally not shoe-horned in) childhood best friend.
According to him, this was him with full control of his emotions saying "you know what? the world would be better off without you" and trying to go ahead with it.

[lucean]

Yeah, the Riddler really feels weird here. Especially considering that Snyder just a few years ago wrote an upgraded Riddler that still felt like the Riddler.

This just feels like King really wanting everyone to look at Riddler as an equal to the Joker, which doesn't usually happen with stories like this.

[ekrolo2]

Snyder also didn't write early years Batman as a borderline emotionless automaton who constantly grimaces and scowls at everything. If anything, Zero Year Batman was probably one of the more expressive and emotionally varied versions of the guy we've seen in recent years.

This was the Batman who knew he was cool and wasn't afraid to yell at the top of his lungs "You wanna fight me?! WELL COME ON THEN! LETS FUCKING DO IT!" A characterization that he kind of transfers into Endgame.

But we gotta suck Year One's dick so Batman's greatest achievement is kicking a tree now (and not beating Red Hood & post apocalypse emperor Riddler) and he's a Terminator who can't think or speak like an actual human being as Miller wrote him in Y1.

[lucean]

But this doesn't even feel like the Year One Batman as that also had a sense of energy and competence.

Tom King has managed to make Batman feel, to me, like just a bore who kind of overcomes while pushing people around him to ridiculous competence levels. Bruce just doesn't feel at all interesting here while in Year One and Year Zero he was this dynamic personality that was finding his place with sheer determination.

[caivu]

King has said that he intended this story to be the Riddler's "Killing Joke".

[lucean]

...If true, that is wow.

Although I can't judge someone for having ambitions and who knows what the legacy of this run will be, that is for the future to decide. I would, however, argue that this is a weird comparison as the Killing Joke managed to convey what makes Joker as a character so interesting, while this story hasn't really done anything with Riddler except to constantly forcefully assert that he is the greatest there is.

[shadowpsykie]

awe you left out the BEST part.

that's said, JESUS BRUCE! I thought he had nearly beat him to death.... but, KNIFE TO THE FACE?

ok back to BATCAT.
I LOVE that bruce said "I love you. I HAVE to love you.... You don't HAVE to love me". He loves her. He admits he NEEDS her... but she doesn't have to return those feelings. do you know how fucking BIG that is... to have a character like Batman acknowledge that even though he loves her he isn't ENTITLED to love her, nor does she have to love him back?

also, I love how tender this scene is... Selina's "Bruce. You poor boy..." because she acknowledges his vulnerability, but also acknowledges that he needs to ASK her... properly. "WILL you marry me". this is fucking beautiful.

[deathcrist2000]

Moo.

[balbanes]

For some reason, I found "I can't see over your thighs" tremendously funny. That would have made me laugh, were I Joker.

[lucean]

I think this issue finally clariifed why I'm having such issues with King's run as it feels like he is just trying to force through one massive retcon or status quo shift after another without really building or setting them up for such roles. Thus this doesn't feel sustainable to me as this doesn't feel like a base story but rather just throwing a lot of stuff out there.

I would genuinely surprised if a lot of the stuff here is discarded by the next set of Batman writers and not because I'm not personally a fan of this, but because this is not something you can easily build on as this would require the next writers to just ignore basically everything that happened before King's run, especially Snyder's run.

[riddler13]

Wasn't this posted here already?

[fra080389]

So what is the difference between a joke and a riddle?

[philippos42]

I'm getting really sick of Tom King. Pretentious trash.

Eddie Nygma is completely out of character in this. Bruce losing his cool like this also seems a bit off.

[bradygirl_12]

Selina is perfect for Bruce. She never lets him wallow too long. :)

[an_idol_mind]

You know, I'm not a big fan of the framing device here. I mean, if Batman is really overcome with guilt about this, I don't think he'd spend umpteen million issues explaining the full backstory. He's probably lead with, "I tried to stab the Riddler to death" and focus on the part that actually makes him feel guilty.

I think the story might be more interesting if it really wasn't Batman's story - if he wasn't even narrating it. Having him cop to his sin and then having Catwoman investigate what really happened would have been more interesting to me.

[locuatico]

there is a reason my running gag with this arc was some variation of "Bruce has been telling this story for hours now. Selina is incredibly bored"

[donnblake]

"And that, kids, is how I proposed to your mother."