The Flash #33 (Dark Knights Metal tie-in)

[superboyprime]

...you're going to die here.

Comments

[matrix_dragon]

You know, I would love it so much if this 'Batman has ultra perfect plans to kill the League' nonsense has the heroes escaping the Murdercaves in record time. I'm sure it won't happen, because Amazing BatGod seems to be the rule of this event, but it would be a great way of demonstrating that no, Bruce is not omnipotent, and the League are very good at shit like this.

[berani00]

I hope you're right on that, because I'm hoping myself that since the Leaguers have at least some experience with Batman's contigencies before if they remember their Post-Crisis experiences in Rebirth. Otherwise, they could try and improvise, since despite looking to be the unholy mashup of Grid and Owlman, the Murder Machine can only account for so much when trying to deal with them, especially since it involves SAW-like Murdercaves, right?

[bradygirl_12]

Yeah, DC tends to forget that the other heroes are competent and clever, too!

[lucean]

I don't think they forget it, but rather that from a tactical/strategy perspective Bruce is more competent than they are because that is his whole point in the Justice League.

If all the other characters are smarter and better at tactics than Batman is, then what is his role there?

[goattoucher]

Realistically, he shouldn't have one, just like you don't see Daredevil fighting Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Batman is the King of Street Level Heroes. Any role he has in a global or cosmic level threat is forced by editorial.

I understand it. I really do. Batman is the most valuable intellectual property in comics. A JL comic without Batman is just throwing away the money his presence would draw. It's the same reason you see Spider-Man and Wolverine all over the place in Marvel.

The problem is that the narrative contortions they have to do to make a place for Batman in these stories are hard to do while telling a solid story, and a lot of writers aren't up to it.

Take GL: Hal is a daring pilot and a galactic super cop in his own comic, but in comics with Batman? Well, if I had a nickel for every time Batman just swiped the ring of GL's finger... I'd have a lot of nickels. The same goes for Batman using a Power Ring more effectively than any professional wielder ever with no practice.

Everyone has to be a mutton-head to emphasize the "crucial" role Batman plays as the Brains of the Outfit in JL and other crossover comics.

[lucean]

Seriously the realism argument? Besides your argument ignores the crucial point that every superhero at the top is there because of their popularity, not just Batman. The reason Hal is all of that is because the company decided he just needs to be the bestest GL ever, just as the same company decided that Batman is able to outwit Hal.

I'm not even touching on the selective examples here as these discussions always focus on some extreme example. Snyder, for example, came up with creative ways of Batman taking down the League. Were those satisfying to you in this case?

[goattoucher]

Let's say Hal wasn't the best GL ever. Let's say he was just an -average- intergalactic space cop who fought crime on dozens of worlds: would it make sense fro him to -constantly- job for Batman then?

Why is Hal, the top GL from Earth, the Best of Them All? For popularity. Absolutely. He is the human one, and so he is the one we (as humans) identify with. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense in universe (for example, wouldn't races with a presence in the galactic community be better space cops than a GL from comparatively secluded Earth), but it makes absolute sense from a real-world marketing perspective.

Accordingly, does it make sense for Batman to be the Best Street Level Vigilante of Them All? It absolutely does, for all the same reasons. Would it make more sense for a guy who actually lived on the streets to know more about the underworld than a billionaire? Absolutely, but the comic buying audience does not generally identify with poor urban people, and being a Billionaire is one of the many aspirational fantasies that Batman fulfills. Plus, being rich means he has cool gadgets, and could fund his fifteen year "Becoming the Batman" world tour in his youth, so we give it a pass.

But then, Batman is -so- popular in the real world that it is not enough for him to be the Best Street Vigilante of Them All. He has to be the Best SuperHero of Them All. He has to be a better space cop and ring wielder than Hal. A better forensic scientist than Barry (and with better reflexes). His scientific knowledge has to be a match for Vic's.

Pretty much, in order to fit Batman on a team he has no business being on, he has to be better than most JL members at their own game. The exceptions being Kal and Diana (because "Trinity") and Arthur (because people who don't know how awesome he is don't always take Aquaman seriously, so the comics have to be careful about not making him look silly).

Because of popularity.

Some logical stretches I can take for marketing reasons, but Batman as a major player on the Galactic stage and -then- going back to Gotham and being legitimately threatened by a normal guy with a green suit and a question mark derby is too much of a stretch for me.

That's me. If you don't agree, that's fine. Several Billion dollars of Bat-Profits rest squarely in your corner to support your position.

[q99]

Stealthiest and best detective?

And I wouldn't say they're smarter, but they know *their* powers and capabilities better.

[lucean]

Both just as true as him being established as the tactician of the team. That has been established several times in the canon just as Flash's speed or Superman's Kryptonian powers.

Besides isn't the direct consequence of this argument that nobody should be able to figure out how to defeat the superpowered League heroes as even if they have weaknesses, they should know their powers so much better that those weaknesses can never be truly exploited?

[nyadnar17]

They usually do. Seriously Batman's plan against the JL only really work when A) The are ambushed and B) they don't know its Batman.

Even in the OG Batman takes down the Justice League story "Tower of Babel" as soon as the League knew what they were dealing with they dealt with it.

Most of the problems with Batgod aren't actually in the comic books. Its the way fans of that particular take on Batman spread the stories. A thousands scans of the scene from Hush where Batgod uppercuts the hell out of Superman with a Kyrptonite ring, zero scans of the next page where Superman is fine and freezes Batman's fist with frost breath.

[ovaltinepatrol]

I don't even get how Dawnbreaker would meaningfully contribute to elaborate ploys. He didn't spend his youth developing his mind and body, he just got the ring and had a super tantrum.

[scorntx]

That'll probably be the underwhelming death cave, then.

"Hal, where are you?"
"In a cave, but... this is going to sound weird."
"What?"
"It just smells of old socks, and I'd swear I hear Kurt Cobain music playing."
"SHUT UP, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY PAIN! I HATE YOU!"
"... I think I know who's death cave I'm in."

[shadowpsykie]

I actually hope that Bruce Prime takes all himselves out. or alternatively, each of the League start thinking like Bruce and attack the DarkBruce's with stuff that THEIR Bruce is weak to, proving that THEY were holding back too. Remember "Why was your box empty?" "You Are"

[lucean]

This feels like an odd thing to be in the Flash tie-in as this seems much more of the main story part instead of a missable side path.

[thanekos]

" Look at what we put together for you, Diana. Look at all this Rocket Red armor. Doesn't it remind you of the Justice League.. International? "
" .. what? "
" .. that never happened for you? "
" No. "
" .. crap. Scratch ' death by mortification ' off the list.. "

[bruinsfan]

Heh. If he wants to get her that way, just show her that Frank Miller page featuring her saying "Out of my way, sperm bank."

[lbd_nytetrayn]

I was just thinking that it would be funny if the crucial flaws herein were because these are different versions than whatever ones these caves were made for.