NS: Thoughts on Justice League

[lucean]

So the Justice League movie came out this weekend and as a passionate fan of the League of Gods, I of course went to watch it. And following it, I decided to do a discussion post about it here to get people's thoughts. Bullet points behind the cut.

-To start, as someone who absolutely loved MoS and BvS, I thought the movie was fine, good even, but it ranks as my fourth favorite film in the current DCEU movies. It's easier to like than those two movies, but for me it felt like it lacked that burning ambition and attempt to do something different than almost defined those two movies and made them such polarizing films. This never really tests the waters.

-Having written that, about two thirds in the movie I was thinking about how this film was a movie of two halves, with the first one which introduced the individual members being clunky and not really gelling together, but once the team got together, it had this surge of energy and was really entertaining. At this point I didn't realize there was a third part of the last ten minutes when the movie became a Superman film.

-I actually think all the five Justice League members are excellently cast and are awesome characters. I'm more enthusiastic about the Aquaman movie. That Lasso scene was just brilliant. On the flipside, I ddi feel slightly bad for Cyborg because I think he was originally supposed to play a bigger part, actually I'm fairly certain he was supposed to be the third Motherbox, but they changed the script drastically and in the end his character didn't really have that arc or moment of clarity.

-The film versions of Diana and Bruce are just such great characters and I feel sad that we will probably never see a true Batman/Wonder Woman movie as I would just love to see the two of them interact. To me, as small as that ethical debate between the two of them was, it was still amazing as it felt between like it was between two real people with pasts instead of just ideological concepts.

-As a die-hard Batman fan, I found the movie's take on the character utterly fascinating as this was a man who felt htat he was obsolete in this new world of gods, that he had lost his humanity in the war he had waged and who only had dying for the cause to look forward.

-All this had me really psyched up when they started the final attack on Steppenwolfe and I legitimately popped when the team came to save Batman from his sacrifice.

-And then the movie just basically deflated everything by bringing Superman to the fight. The issue for me wasn't that Superman entered the fray, but rather how it was done as he literally just slapped Steppenwolfe, our big bad, around without minimal effort before going to save some civilians. This was such a baffling choice as it removed any sense of tension from the fight that point onward as they already established that Steppenwolfe, who was dominating the team, had nothing on Superman and essentially made the team that this whole damn whole damn movie spent time on building completely meaningless and obsolete. I feel anger just writing this.

-I saw criticism for the movie in that it doesn't really have that same sense of director identity that the previous movies have, for better or for worse, which I think is accurate. However, I would actually argue that this has a very specific sense creator in that this felt like a Geoff Johns movie. Especially that final fight with Superman just coming in and being the bestest was something that Johns would almost certainly do.  Snyder in turn has always seemed to have understood to avoid such things as you can see from the way he framed the big fights in his first two DCEU movies which were about barely overcoming the opposition and the heroes being defined by that struggle.

-All this hindered the movie a lot as I felt it did a really good job in building the story of the team and making us want to see them truly come together to overcome this evil, but didn't give them an opportunity to do so because Superman was just the ridicilous priority. Thus the movie lacked that defining moment.

-Now having written all that negative stuff there, the movie completely got me invested in the sequel with that post-credit scene as there is just so many amazing things that they can do with a team villains facing the League.

Comments

[thezmage]

I pretty much enjoyed the whole thing. While he definitely had more powers to fight Steppenwolfe on a more even level than the others and his appearance changed the tide of battle, I don’t feel that Superman rendered the whole team obsolete, not just because it took all of them to bring Superman back. It still took the entire team to defeat Steppenwolfe.

Although I could have done without the scene where we find out that all of their moms were named Martha.

[thezmage]

But my for real favorite moment was when the Flash went to attack Superman and suddenly realizes just how fast Superman is.

[sinanju]

Ditto. Watching the Flash moving through a time-stopped world...only to see Superman notice and track him, and react, was hilarious--and terrifying for Barry.

I don't think Superman dominated the team quite as badly as some do. For one thing, he couldn't have done what Cyborg did--untangle the Mother Boxes. He helped pull them apart physically, but only after Cyborg had done the hard part, something Superman, for all his powers, couldn't do.

[byc]

That was my favorite scene, even if Miller's face was so beyond absurd that it was funny again.

[mrwalker]

YES, this so much. Clark starts to turn, and Barry's like "uhhh?" Clark goes full on death glare, and the look in Barry's eyes SCREAMS "I am so screwed..."

[lieut_kettch]

I like that it shows how Supes is on a whole other level and can perceive Barry moving at super speed, but at the same time shows that Barry still has the edge when he dodges Supes’ blows repeatedly.

[bruinsfan]

Ditto here. Though it seemed that even Superman didn't realize he was that fast until confronted by the Flash. He's zipped around quickly in previous films, but never seemed to have reaction speed that made everyone else seem to be motionless statues. (Might have come in handy against Doomsday, y'know!)

[joetuss]

Superman is top dog for a reason, and this film showcased that flawlessly. He's been bailing out the League for years now, so i don't see what the problem is. Everyone got their shine in this movie, and thank God almighty, they finally got Superman on the right track.

[q99]

A lot of people do prefer the League when it’s more balanced and doesnt have anyone stand well above the others.

Plus BvS did give me the impression he and Wondy were relatively close in effectiveness vs the same foe.

[joetuss]

Well, I watched the WW/Supes vs DoomZod fight several times, and I noticed that most of WW effectiveness in that fight was due to Supes being DoomZod's primary target. The only time she really hurt him on her own was when she chopped his hand off (which did more harm than good) ...they were both outclassed, but it was clear to me that Superman would have been the last hero standing, had the fight gone on any longer.

[q99]

She did hurt the back of his leg once too. Yea, Superman was the primary target, but still, similar tier was my impression.

[bruinsfan]

Yep, she held her own against Doomsday for a good long bit, and actually inflicted more serious damage than Superman was able to until the kryptonite spear came into play. My impression was their strength, speed, and impact resilience was probably proportional to their respective builds, with Diana's vastly greater combat skill giving her the edge up close but Clark's flight and heat vision giving him more options for movement and ranged attacks.

I definitely think they nerfed Diana in this one to make teamwork more necessary. Steppenwolf didn't appear to be a more formidable opponent than Doomsday or Ares.

[byc]

I feel like that scene was still fair because Superman was angry and confused at being revived.

He overpowered Wonder Woman, but it's not like she was dominated.

I loved that he really gave Batman a well-deserved beating.

I assume Flash's speed will be upgraded in the future so that he's faster than Superman.

[joetuss]

I don't know...she looked like she got a little dominated. The part where she tried to lasso him and he just pulled her in with one arm,and grabbed her. Or the other time where he just headbuts her through the concrete...the fact that none of them could stop him pretty much defines dominance.

[bruinsfan]

To be fair, she wasn't trying to hurt him, whereas she was going for the kill against Doomsday and Ares. I had more issues with how ineffective she was against Steppenwolf, whom she presumably wasn't holding back against.

[mrwalker]

I think I have a bigger problem with Superman in the DCAU, where he comes across as UNDERpowered. He can throw a mean punch and they even explain him holding back, but he gets taken down too easily IMO.

[joetuss]

Well, all movie superheroes are nerfed, even the non powered ones.

[onsokumaru]

I kinda enjoyed it.

The bad guy sucked, but that has been a constant in the latest DC movies. At least, Steppenwolf makes a good sandbag and allows the heroes to show off their powers.
I agree that Batman was really interesting. A Bruce who realizes his mistakes and is really trying to change and to open himself to others is something we don't see often.

My favorite parts were the 2 fights that didn't involve any of the JL members.
The one with the Amazons: alot of tension here.
And that epic battle in the past. Nice world building.

Less favorite things?
I didn't care about Flash. He was barely more than an annoying mascot.
Also, all the Superman/Lois/Martha parts. No matter what the media is, I'll never be able to care about those characters.

[nightauditguy]

As much as I liked the movie, there were a few things that bugged me. Such no one commenting on Clark not being dead. Sure, the other heroes, Lois and Martha Kent just accept it but couldn't there at least been a scene with Perry and Clark and Perry asking Kent why he's not dead?

[mrwalker]

I'm just happy they showed us Clark Kent at the end, so we're not left wondering if he's going to abandon that particular secret ID. Of course now we're left to wonder how they'll explain Clark's return...

[blueprintstyles]

I enjoyed the move but not to the level of MoS or BvS, which I also loved. Hoping for a director's cut because Zack always brings it in those. I'm hearing a lot of Steppenwolf/Malekith comparisons but I thought Steppenwolf to be far more compelling. To me, Steppenwolf is an zealot pilgrim, earth is america, and we're all the Natives.

[michaelsaint]

This movie was awful and a step in the right direction all at the same time, and I say that as huge Justice League fan.

My favorite part was the fight after Superman is revived.

Warner Bros needs to get rid of the execs that made this and Snyder and put a lot of effort into making great solo films for each Justice League member. And I mean GREAT. Like they need to be aiming for Wonder Woman great.

There is a serious creative problem at Warner Bros. Almost all of the DCEU movies (the lone exception being Wonder Woman) have glaring plot/character/editorial problems, including the new Justice League film. It is hard to keep going to these movies watching to only watch them strikeout on what should be a home run.

They need to get rid of the people that keep making such sh%@y movies out of priceless cultural icons.

[joetuss]

This movie got me excited for the next solo Superman flick. It seems lije they finally got a handle on the guy...I especially liked the Bruce/Clark moment at the end...oh and SLADE...Can't wait for that.

[byc]

I've hated every other Snyder DCEU movie, even though I still enjoyed them. I've always said that quality does not mean enjoyment although they are often tied to together. I saw the movie Thursday night (not even a late showing. Mine was at 8). I went into this movie expecting the worst as usual.

I thought the movie was actually good, and I still enjoyed it quite a bit. My rating is around a 74.

I thought the quality improved by the movie's overall tone being much less dark and gritty and too self-serious. I don't know if Whedon's touch of the film vastly improved it or not.

Thinking back later on why I enjoyed it, and I think I've more to the conclusion that this film is an apology letter to myself, DC fans, and especially Superman fans. Superman was pleasant, not broody (even pre-death during flashbacks). I thought the 'hope is dead' narrative of the entire film went a bit too far in overselling everybody that Superman is important. Batman was contrite with his actions and beliefs during BvS . This is pleasing to me since I've been the spotlight has been on Batman for so long at the expense of Superman. It's interesting that Batman has looked kind of bad in 2 straight movies (BvE and this one). Nonetheless, he seems to be in the right position of being franchiser and able to manipulate people into action instead of being BatGod.

Wonder Woman was a joy again. Batman and the film addressed how she's mostly been in hiding since WWI, and she wasn't perfect and was hurting from the outcome of WWI in the Wonder Woman film. Aquaman being the insecure jock is entertaining and seemed to fit. Flash being the insecure joker works as well, even if some of his jokes and actions were almost too absurd. Cyborg being a plot device and exposition deliverer (even more than Wonder Woman and Aquaman) was unfortunate. I feel bad for Ray Fisher being tasked with that role plus having only like about 2/3 of his face unaltered by CG.

Steppenwolf was ultimately a weak villain in all ways. He was not as big of a threat physically as it was initially shown. Wonder Woman and Aquaman were able to handle him even without Superman (he was rescuing people). Superman really handled Steppenwolf by himself when he was fighting him. We probably all understood his plan, but it was such a generic "I'm going to conquer/destroy the planet" plan that it was boring.

I don't know how if Snyder changed his directing himself or did DC/WB people forced him to. I don't know if Wheldon had a major impact or not. I like the results, and I hope they can continue on this path.

[spider_man6]

Just saw it. I get there is some legitimate criticism regarding director choices and sexism in some scenes, as well as other things, but overall I loved it. I felt like I was reading a comic book. All of the League was great, especially Superman and Cyborg. Superman felt like his comic counterpart for once because he was full of hope, and Cyborg got to grow into a funny person and change his decisions throughout the story. Steppenwolf stunk, but he did work in getting everyone together. Gordon, Lois, and Mera were okay in the side roles, . Also, this movie was funny, and in a way that was original and not like copying Marvel. My favorite scene was probably at the end, when you see all of the heroes interacting with people and saving. It filled me with such hope.
And can i say, that credits scene was great. I am so pumped for the idea of Lex and DEATHSTROKE forming a bad guy team. Let’s just hope all of the fumble with The Batman doesn’t stop this from happening.

[thezmage]

This was probably the first time Cyborg in the Justice League didn’t stick out like a sore thumb to me.

[bruinsfan]

Yeah, I was dubious about him replacing Green Lantern as a founding member, but it worked. Ray Fisher turned in some effective character scenes, particularly opposite Ezra Miller and Joe Morton.

[jmacq1]

Given the disappointing opening weekend take for Justice League, the fumble with The Batman is probably the least of the worries when it comes to getting a Justice League 2.

Mark my words, there's going to be another "restructuring" at Warner Brothers in the next couple months as they flail around trying to play catch-up with Marvel/Disney. Aquaman is probably guaranteed to happen, since principal photography is done. Wonder Woman 2 is a sure thing, and maybe Suicide Squad 2 if the budget is kept reined in.

But The Batman and Justice League 2 may not be happening for a loooong time.

[icon_uk]

And The Flash lost another director recently, didn't it?

[glprime]

Agree with pretty much all your points. It was fun, it wasn't god-awful like most critics are saying, but there was a lot of wasted potential. I didn't feel like there was the "sounds good on paper but in execution it comes out horribly" like in BvS, this was full of genuinely good moments, and I really enjoyed most of the performances (Superman, for how little he was in it was turned up just a little too bright and cheesy). But where the film faltered was the real-world problems of two directors and production issues, resulting in lots of dropped or half-finished ideas, and a mish-mash film at the end. You can see where a lot of scenes are cut away from part-way through. It's really rough. Again, you can follow it all and enjoy the ride, but not nearly as much as Marvel's recent tightly scripted/edited features. B-/C+

[bradygirl_12]

Just saw it! Enjoyed it more than I expected. I give it a solid 'B'.

Henry Cavill was FINALLY Superman, a beacon of hope instead of Emo Boy.

I liked all the characters and their interactions, and LOVED Diana. I'm glad she exhibited her displeasure at Bruce's below-the-belt crack about Steve.

I am definitely going to see Aquaman if they release it.

With the movie declared a box office flop, though, whither the DCEU?