NS: Black Panther film

[lucean]

As has been impossible, the cultural phenomenon known as Black Panther hit the majority of theaters this weekend. So I thought why not make a discussion post here on the movie, seeing as it is a major comic book film, and write out some thoughts in an effort to feed my eternal hubris. All the spoilerfic comments will be below the cut, but as a general note I personally thought it was a really good movie, probably among the best Marvel movies I've seen, that fell only a little bit short of being a great movie. Still genuinely cannot recommend it enough for people to see.

Before anything else, a slight demographic point. I'm a white guy from the Nordic countries, which basically means I'm amongst the most the whitest people in the world. So there is a certain emotional connection I will miss in this movie, but it also doesn't mean that my viewpoints on it are somehow more objective. Also you could see the meaning of this movie even here as the ethnic composition of the audience in my showing was noticeably different from a regular superhero flick.

On a more overall level, somethign that truly elevated this movie to me was that it had a strong central concept, probably the strongest in a Marvel movie, in the question of what do you do with power. As it is this really clear concept most of the characters in the movie struglgle wtih, it makes it easy to connect to different viewpoints and character motivations. That along with a lot of strong performances is crucial to the movie as it is really cluttered with so many character and relationships with some of them feeling unnecessary. For example the need for the romantic connection between Okoye and W'Kabi was really baffling. And Freeman's Ross was basically there only to be #NotAllWhitePeople. Still, the whole worked astonishingly well. Then to some more specific thoughts.

-As good as Boseman was as T'Challa, for me Michael B. Jordan just owned this movie. Not only was the character of Killmonger brilliant and completely fitting to the theme of the movie by being the rage born out of Wakanda's inaction, Jordan just gave him such a sense of depth. Even in the silliest moments like the collection of scars, Jordan managed to make it feel menacing. And that scene after ingesting the herb and meeting his dead father was one of the moments that truly elevated this movie for me.

-On a more negative side, I really struggled with Nakia. Not because the actress was bad, far from it, but her character was just kind of there. Out of all the characters in the movie, with the natural exception of Ross, she felt the most aimless and did realyl feel like she was only there ot be the Strong Female Romantic Interest. Which isn't bad in itself, but I think due to the film being so crowded, it really stood out to me more than normal, which in turn soured me more towards her.

-Back to the positive. Okoye was amazing and I feel they did a lot of really strong work in establishing how she was in the film.

-Shuri was mixed bag for me. I liked the actress and I thought the sibling dynamic they set up was really fun. However I somewhat felt they went overboard with her genius which started to detract things to me at a certain point. I get the allure of the 16 year old supergenius, but when you are in a nation you establish as this technologically advanced to begin with and then constantly allege that every piece of supertech brought out was developed by the same 16 year old girl, it starts to feel unnecessary. Not to speak on that apparently she is a medical genius as well. Also the way they ignored when discussing the line of succession was kind of weird, but I think it was a part larger issue that I'll return to later.

-Back to the positive. M'Baku absolutely stole my heart in this move and was just pure awesomeness the moment they entered his lands. My favorite comedic moment in the movie is a tie between the vegetarian moment and the 'Are you done' moment. Okay, on refletion, the latter one wins it. On a more metalevel, M'Baku made me think on Iron Man 3 and the justification for the Mandarin choice as Black basically stated that the Mandarin was basically built on a racial stereotype. The reason this came to my mind was that the way the movie treated M'Baku, and the concerns I had about him the first they showed him, as I felt it showed you can still work with characters that were originally problematic by just finding smart ways to subvert those stereotypes.

-The worst scene in the movie for me, by far, was the Ross's tense simulator chase. First, the stakes there were completely artificial as if Erik won, he would just send another shipment of arms. If T'Challa won, then the shipment would be called back. Second, why would first frame Ross's decision to stay as this dramatic moment, only then to have him complete the mission in such good time that he almost literally just walks away. That moment just killed so much tension for me, but fortunately the perfection that is Michael B. Jordan was the to save it.

-As a sidenote, T'Challa seemed really non-chalant about killing his subjects when the time came for it.

-Seriously, when Killmonger told to bury him at the sea, I think I shed tears.

-As a final note, it felt like a lot of scenes were removed from this movie in order to make it under two hours. There were just a lot of scenes where I felt they skipped something before that. Nothing detracting from the quality, but things that might have provided important context. For example, I would bet money that there was originally a scene between M'Baku and the Queen that would have both expanded the background of the Jabari tribe, which was so confusing, while also further setting up by M'Baku would join T'Challa in the end. Still, my heart just fluttered when I saw M'Baku in the council as no more was needed.

Those were my overly long thoughts on the movie, which I did seriously love. I would also welcome other thoughts and arguments on the movie if people here are willing to share.

Comments

[laughing_tree]

I agree that there were one or two too many characters. I feel that way about a lot of these big movies, actually.

I also don't care too much for the way the Marvel movies continue to sand off the more distinct shapes of its characters into more conventional adventure story archetypes. So T'Chaka, despite his secret shame, is the film's wise and caring father instead of the comics' realpolitik bastard. And T'Challa is a really conventional protagonist when all is said and done instead of the comics' distant and arrogant man-with-the-plan.

Despite that, I still liked the movie a lot all in all. Highlights include the execution of Wakandan culture and the strong (by Marvel movie standards) sociopolitical subtext.

Though that actually brings up something else that irked me a little. I'm reluctant to mention this because I haven't seen a single other person bring it up, including folks who are a lot closer to these issues than me, so I figure I must be missing something. But is anyone else unhappy that the only two characters who ever engage in anything approaching forceful civil rights activism are the villain and his dad? Wakanda's reluctance to engage is a plot point, obviously, but even in the end when T'Challa decides to get involved, his big plan is... community outreach? That's like the most non-controversial play-it-safe approach there is. There seems to be a faint line being drawn between forceful, genuinely disruptive activism and supervillainy. A *faint* line for sure, but still there... Like I said, I'm probably missing something.

[mesmiranda]

There seems to be a faint line being drawn between forceful, genuinely disruptive activism and supervillainy.

Definitely! But to be fair to T'Challa, I could see him being leery of inciting protests just when Wakanda has revealed itself to the world as having super-advanced weaponry and a mountainful of arguably the most powerful substance on Earth. (That's not to say that I hope it doesn't come up somewhere along the line, possibly in the Netflix shows.)

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

"Wakanda's reluctance to engage is a plot point, obviously, but even in the end when T'Challa decides to get involved, his big plan is... community outreach? That's like the most non-controversial play-it-safe approach there is"

Well, that's really the best and non violent way to get things done. Can't punch social progress forward, unfortunately.

[laughing_tree]

Well, there's a lot of space in-between community outreach and punching, like criticism and non-violent protest. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the logic of the character's choices (which make sense), just the story's decision to frame all other paths as villainous or at least villainous-adjacent.

[arilou_skiff]

The line is drawn between literally arming insurgent movements and supervillainy.

Because arming insurgents has never in the history of the world ever backfired or retroactively turned out to be a bad idea.

As Ross points out, Killmonger is a CIA asset, and while he has gone rogue he still essentially follows the CIA manual. (which is pretty close to real-life supervillainy)

[laughing_tree]

I think my issue is that it presents these poles without acknowledging the moral legitimacy of anything in-between.

[lucean]

I'm hoping the sequel tackles that question in a more detailed form. This movie basically builds up to T'Challa's decision to do something, so hopefully in the follow-up we see the struggle of the in-between.

[arilou_skiff]

It's more that it acknowledges the issue of a state-actor doing anything in-between. Sure, they could fund politically aligned groups rather than directly sending weapons-shipments, but It would not really amount to anything different (see eg. the allegations against China's Confucius institutes and similar groups)

[zachbeacon]

These days there are so many comic movies that I generally just wait for the Marvel blu ray (and rarely bother with DC at all) and I'm fine waiting again even though I keep hearing PB is great but I am curious about one thing.

Up until Dr. Strange (which seems to start at around the same time as the second Iron Man), I had assumed that the Marvel movies happened more or less in order. Since T'Chaka is dead but Cap doesn't seem to be present in the PB trailers, is it safe to assume that this is all happening in the middle of Civil War?

[stubbleupdate]

After Civil War.
Cap isn't Black Panther.

[zachbeacon]

I know Hollywood whitewashing is bad but I never entertained the thought that it was THAT bad.

[scorntx]

-Cap isn't Black Panther-

Um, well, in Ultimates 3- *is struck by a bolt of lightning*

[mesmiranda]

- On a more negative side, I really struggled with Nakia. Not because the actress was bad, far from it, but her character was just kind of there. Out of all the characters in the movie, with the natural exception of Ross, she felt the most aimless and did realyl feel like she was only there ot be the Strong Female Romantic Interest. Which isn't bad in itself, but I think due to the film being so crowded, it really stood out to me more than normal, which in turn soured me more towards her.

For me, Nakia serves as the film's moral compass. She's the one arguing for Wakanda to reject its isolationist policies and open its borders and give people aid, in contrast to Okoye's traditionalist views. When she and Okoye clash later in the film, it's Nakia who goes out and saves T'Challa while Okoye (however reluctantly) supports the new monarch. She doesn't reject tradition--she observes all the rituals with the royal family, and she's hesitant to wear the outfit of the Dora Milaje--but she argues that Wakanda is strong enough to keep its way of life and help others. T'Challa comes around to agree with her, through his own character arc, and I think the film does too. And she has a clear purpose, a clear calling, that's true to her nature, to do good, and that she doesn't put aside for anyone--even her royal ex. That's badass and awesome.

I get the allure of the 16 year old supergenius, but when you are in a nation you establish as this technologically advanced to begin with and then constantly allege that every piece of supertech brought out was developed by the same 16 year old girl, it starts to feel unnecessary.

She's sixteen, I highly doubt she came up with all the technology in Wakanda ever. Probably just modified it and improved it where she could (which, given that she's a super-genius, is a lot).

-The worst scene in the movie for me, by far, was the Ross's tense simulator chase. First, the stakes there were completely artificial as if Erik won, he would just send another shipment of arms. If T'Challa won, then the shipment would be called back.

T'Challa could win and call back the ships all he wanted, the people piloting them could very well ignore him and keep going. The arms could still get out of the country to the war dogs--it's vital that the vibranium tech doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

Second, why would first frame Ross's decision to stay as this dramatic moment, only then to have him complete the mission in such good time that he almost literally just walks away.

Good time? The guy had something like two seconds before the glass broke, and he was hauling arse out of there once the job was done.

I think Ross is there to underline the point that Wakanda can't afford to ignore the outside world anymore, with his exposition on N'Jadaka's American background/activities and his specifically targeting the ships headed to the outside world, and to reinforce T'Challa's point about building bridges--but I do see the point about #NotAllWhitePeople. (The scene before with the white lady curator in the British museum was great--as soon as she went, "Oh, you could say that [I'm an expert]", I was just waiting for Killmonger to snark back. In glasses, no less!)

[lucean]

On Nakia, I think I got that she was supposed to be the moral compass, but I just never felt it was genuinely rooted in anything. She was the voice of change, but the change she pushed for was so vague that it just felt there was anything there. It also didn't help that her focus shifted so much between scenes that it was difficult to get a grasp of it at times. As mentioned, this is just my personal opinion, she felt the most artificial of the characters because of this.

On Shuri, I agree that there's probably a lot of tech there Shuri developed, but with one exception every single time they bring up supertech, they directly credit Shuri for it. When she stated that she invented the sonic stabilizers for the trains, I was just rolling my eyes so hard.

On Ross, he had time to take a deep sigh and then go 'I should probably go'. It was so anticlimatic that it was ridiculous. What I hated the most, though, was that you can't frame it as being a serious moment of sacrifice and then just skip the apparent sacrifice. When the computer tells Ross to leave because the shielding is about to give, but Ross making the somber decision to stay in order to stop the transport, which I still claim was a false stake, there has to be a payoff to that other than Ross just sighing about getting it done just in time to leave.

Also I will admit I groaned when Ross started explaining how Killmonger was. It was just stupidly convenient as every CIA agent apparently knows most of the major Spec Unit soldier out there. Even going from the assumption that Killmonger was more notorious, that was just headshake worthy.

As a sidenote, I absolutely loved the British Museum scene.

[arilou_skiff]

Killmonger had been working with Klaue who Ross was at the very least tracking. I don't think it was much of a stretch to have "Oh, he's been in contact with this ex-CIA asset." as part of that thing.

[lucean]

It is when the film doesn't express is, instead relying on the viewer to come up with an explanation.

Seriously, if the film had Ross just go 'I worked with his team once' or 'I know of him because he was a part of Klaue's unit', I'd been more than okay with it. Instead we just got that Ross knows of Killmonger because he just does.

[arilou_skiff]

Eh? Killmonger works with Klaue, who Ross has been interacting with. That's plenty enough explanation.

[informationgeek]

Loooooooved the film. Only two complaints:
1. CGI is a bit dodgy in some areas, in particular with the rhinos towards the end.
2. The opening action scene in the jungle was hard to look at. Too jerky and the muzzling flashing constantly hurt my head.

That's pretty much it. See it people!!!

[spider_man6]

Just saw this, so there’s nothing yet I can legitimately dislike or criticize. I particular liked Killmonger (he was a strong villain, his best attributes being a darker reflection of T’Challa and the way his street personality contrasted with the traditions of Wakanda) and Shuri (her middle finger scene was unexpectedly funny.) I think the CGI was a bit dodgy sometimes, but the costumes, action, and music were awesome. Infinity War definitely has a lot to overcome, as least to me.

[arilou_skiff]

Infinity War is going to live and die by how well it does Thanos. Anything else is secondary.

[arilou_skiff]

I saw it, I liked it. It threaded the needle between "african-american" and "african" and the complexities that involves pretty much as well as an american movie can expect to.

Killmonger dying felt like a waste, but then again, that is the case for most MCU villains.

I watched it in 3D which lessed the visual effect (it weakens the colours) but the sets, the costuming, etc. were pretty awesome. There were a few nitpicks ("Bast" I get, but Hanuman? WTF?) but overall a good Marvel movie, if a bit on the formulaic side. (though I kind of expect most "first movies" to be that kind of thing)

[mesmiranda]

("Bast" I get, but Hanuman? WTF?)

I think it's a reference to the Afro-Indian community. Plus, Hanuman is a badass shapeshifter monkey god who can lift mountains--makes sense the Jabari tribe would follow him.

I didn't know the 3D lessens the colours and now I'm sad. Time to buy another ticket?

[arilou_skiff]

Also, I have to say that Bozeman is just really, really attractive. (hell, most of the cast were really pretty, but that is Hollywood for you)

[jaxjyls]

Enjoyed a lot, found to be one of the better Marvel movies only 2 major problems I found:

1) The most fight of the hand-to-hand fight scenes were rather subpar for my tastes
2) At one point Killmonger falls for supervillain stupidity and doesn't make sure a character is actually dead or not.

[tonybennett3]

First great review. Great points and insight on the both the movie and comic culture, and kudos as 'The Nordic Guy', in understanding that the nuance that is 'Black Culture' may escape you.

We wanted to see something positive and we wasn't disappointed. They hired the right people. Black Panther is a King. Marvel had to do it right. Jack Kirby made the blueprint. Wakanda was just as Cosmic as Zenn-La. Opulent as Asgard. I want Planet Bast!!

Wakanda the Nation was what intrigued me. As far a characters, M'Baku the Man-Ape(!) was the Barometer. If Marvel could redeem him AND have me rooting for that muthfucka by the end of the movie then I'm cool. They were very respectful in bringing the hundreds of Cultures you see represented. Ruth E. Carter is going to win the Oscar for Costume Design. Believe It: https://www.npr.org/2018/02/16/586513016/black-panther-costume-designer-draws-on-the-sacred-geometry-of-africa

RDJr is retiring his Iron Man. Shuri is going to be the new 'Marvel McGuffin Designer'. I think that's awesome!

Great Review!

[lieut_kettch]

I do like how they made a potentially racist character into something actually likable.

Though I do see an inconsistency. How was T'Challa found by a Jabari fisherman if the tribe is vegetarian?

[tonybennett3]

Marvel was more ignorant than racist. You can't learn about Africa from Tarzan movies. I do think M'Baku was messing around with his 'guests'.

[janegray]

The average person doesn't think of fish as meat. A "vegetarian" is a "person who doesn't eat meat," so a pescatarian who is just making a joke would go with the term that most people are familiar with.

[lieut_kettch]

I don't like that they killed off Klaw and Killmonger though. There isn't even a way out for Klaw to be absorbed into the Vibranium mound and become living sound since Eric killed him in outside of Wakanda.

I also don't like that T'Challa didn't exhibit any Priest-level planning powers and that most of his comic-book scientific genius was given to Shuri. Leticia Wright is absolutely adorable though in the role.

My wild fan speculation: somewhere in a future Avengers film, Shuri is science-bro-ing with Stark and Banner (and Parker?). And she says something along the lines of, "Please, only my mother and brother call me Shuri. My friends call me Riri."

[janegray]

My wild fan speculation: somewhere in a future Avengers film, Shuri is science-bro-ing with Stark and Banner (and Parker?). And she says something along the lines of, "Please, only my mother and brother call me Shuri. My friends call me Riri."

This would be awesome.

[dr_archeville]

Saw it Saturday night. Absolutely loved it - the acting, the costumes, the sound, the visual effects, everything. Also slightly confused why half the audience left before the mid-credits scene, but then I realized that a not inconsiderable portion of the audience may have never seen an MCU film before.

A friend saw Black Panther yesterday at an Alamo Drafthouse, and got this

and before the movie, Chadwick Boseman comes on screen

just standing there

and staring

wordless.

Lupita Nyong’o comes up to him and asks what he’s doing

“They know,” he says, his voice like velvet-wrapped diamonds

oh, she realizes, he’s talking about the viewing audience. He’s trying to stare us down to remind everyone to not talk, text, or use their cellphones during the screening.

but he can’t do that during the entire movie

“Yes, I can.”

he insists. He will be there. Throughout the entire film.

“I’m watching!”

---

two hours and fifteen minutes later, the final credits have rolled, the second post-credits stinger showed, the movie is over

smash cut to Chadwick’s face, filling the screen
“I’M STILL WATCHING.”

I feel slightly cheated for not getting to experience that. All we got were some local ads, and trailers for Avengers: Infinity War and Hurricane Heist.

[janegray]

I have a suggestion. Please, next time, wait a little longer before making this type of post. If you make them immediately after a movie comes out, then only a part of the community can participate, then the post gets buried by other posts within a couple of days. Since we normally only have a single post to discuss a movie, I would suggest delaying it at least several days to ensure that as many people as possible can get in the discussion.

Anyway, I was wondering something. Did anybody get if Ross just bought the blade after Klaue and Killmonger stole it, or if he commissioned the theft?

Because if he commissioned it, then he is directly responsible for the murder of a bunch of innocent people at the beginning of the movie. What the hell? Isn’t he supposed to be one of the good guys?

[lucean]

Here's the challenge with this. I saw the film on Friday and I did the post on Sunday. Now I do understand your argument, however on my side I feel a lot more enthusiasm to write a post like this a couple of days after the film than even a week after watching the film.

Now the obvious solution, and I don't mean this to sound petty, is that I just don't write these film discussion posts. That will allow someone who wishes to write the post a week or two after the film comes out an opportunity to make that post. Although, and again this isn't meant as argumentative, with the previous films where I haven't done the discussion post, someone else has done it in the opening weekend or it usually doesn't come out at all. Also, almost all sites have the discussions posts on the opening weekend, they usually just also have follow-up posts that also allow people to participate later.

[janegray]

How about a compromise? Wait until the first weekend is over. Instead of sunday, make it on monday.

It's true that many sites have both an immediate post and a follow-up post, but those sites generally have thousands of users and hundreds of comments. Scans_Daily is a tiny fraction of the size. Usually even just one post struggles to get 30 comments, split it in two and I'd be surprised if the follow-up gets even ten comments. That's why nobody ever bothers to make a follow-up post.