Amazing Spider-Man #603

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

After last issue, Chameleon is impersonating Peter. He doesn't know who Peter really is. He attempts to get a grasp of Peter's life by looking through his old yearbook and photos. Among them is a photo of Gwen, and a message from Flash in his yearbook where he tells him to "stay puny".

As posted before, Chameleon!Peter has sex with Michelle. I have to ask--is this rape? Personally, I think it is as Michelle probably wouldn't have given consent to Chameleon otherwise. But some fans of the issue on Spider-Man Crawl Space are arguing that it isn't because she gave consent. Is there a legal definition on this?

Anyway, Chameleon!Peter has his meeting with MJ.

Comments

[mullon.insanejournal.com]

I don't think it's rape. It's sex under false pretenses, which is very bad in it's own way, but doesn't sound as bad.

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

Sex under false pretences is a form of rape.

[(Anonymous)]

That's rape.

[(Anonymous)]

so does MJ still know that Peter is Spidey after brand new day?

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

It's been hinted that she does but not explicitly confirmed.

[sandoz_iscariot.insanejournal.com]

She does.

[goblinthebamf.insanejournal.com]

yuck. I think I'll just stick with calling this whole thing "unpleasant" and try not to think anymore about the other horrid implications like what happened to Michelle.

[ian_karkull.insanejournal.com]

Heh. I kind of like this, actually. It's like Peter Parkers Evil Twin has been set loose upon the world.
It works for me because deep, deep down inside, in his darkest hours, Peter probably sometimes has thoughts and feelings like this. He is, after all, the archetypical flawed character.
Struggling to rise above these base urges is what makes him a hero.

[ar_feiniel_.insanejournal.com]

I agree.

Besides, at least this Parker has the balls to be a real dick, instead of the current one who just eats wheaties and gets wasted at weddings to cope with his ex.

[icon_uk.insanejournal.com]

I google "what crime is impersonating someone for the purposes of sex?" and got this (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fj2i5SzMu3IC&lpg=PA85&ots=7cPCb7rRxs&dq=what%20crime%20is%20impersonating%20someone%20for%20the%20purposes%20of%20sex&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=&f=false) link.

[ashtoreth.insanejournal.com]

Please don't feel I'm being an ugly American, but isn't that British law? I can't find anything to specifically say.

[sandoz_iscariot.insanejournal.com]

What happened to Michelle was rape. She was consenting to have sex with Peter, but that wasn't Peter--it was a stranger who broke into her home. She was not consenting to have sex with the Chameleon, and would not have if she had known who he really was. The fact that this is probably going to be played off for more whomp whomp whomp sitcom-y mistaken identity hijinks is terrible.

[darklorelei.insanejournal.com]

Exactly.

[felinephoenix.insanejournal.com]

This.

[jaybee3.insanejournal.com]

It was rape. She did not consent to have sex with Chameleon. She consented to have sex with Peter. They are not the same person. If we are were talking about all the people who had sex with Skrulls (i.e. Tigra and SkrullHankPym) thinking they were someone else we wouldn't even think to question it ... I hope.

[punishermax.insanejournal.com]

Or it could be played like it was rape, we don't know,neither of us can see into the future.

[colonel_green.insanejournal.com]

If we're talking in a legal sense, flawlessly impersonating another person in the way the Chameleon does is so outside the scope of our reality that it's hard to match it with current laws. Realistically, she would probably feel like that if she found out (which she won't), but fiction involving shapeshifters rarely delves into that sort of thing, preferring to just let shapeshifter stories like this get played for humour (though it can also be played for horror/drama; see Abby Arcane). I remember how the JLU episode where Flash ends up in Lex's body and then is implied to have romanced Tala (though she was the one making the moves there) generated a bunch of discussions about whether that made the Flash technically a rapist; it's probably one of those storytelling conceits that should be left alone.

A reviewer (IGN, I think) had a good analysis of this issue, in that it uses Chameleon's impersonation to frame the things Peter isn't as a result either of being Spider-Man or just his personality: Fake-Peter is punctual, as MJ notes; he insults Flash; he's reasonably good at recognizing attraction and seducing women, etc.

[arilou_skiff.insanejournal.com]

Icon_UK did show a link and apparently yes, it is considered rape (definitely) if you impersonate someone's husband and sleep with them, apparently it is a bit murkier when it comes to impersonation outside of marriage, but at least one court has argued that it is indeed rape.

[colonel_green.insanejournal.com]

Oh, and poor Flash.

[roguefankc.insanejournal.com]

I know. Flash has grown into a sympathetic and likeable character somewhat, and Peter and Flash did both seem to grow to resp4ect each other a bit.

Seeing this made me wince because it's alsmost an invitation to revert back to "Flash the jock hating Peter and making him miserable" like their high school days.

[fredneil.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Shouldn't someone notice that Peter's acting strangely? Even if he is a jerk in this universe, he's still being a lot more of a jerk than usual. Bring up high school in an especially cruel way a decade or so later, despite years of friendship inbetween should seem old. At least after Flash gets over the immediate desire to shoot fake peter, and while telling Mary Jane that it never worked because she's not Gwen might be brutal honesty, she should wonder why he brought visual aids to make his point. (Again, after she gets over the desire to shoot him.) If Mary Jane still knows he's Spider-Man, she should be especially sensitive to this kind of thing.

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

Shouldn't someone notice that Peter's acting strangely?

But that would require logic and continuity.

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

Anyone know why Chameleon doesn't remember building robotic replicas of Peters's parents? This was before he found out who he was, so there's no reason why he shouldn't remember.

[foxhack.insanejournal.com]

We don't even know if it's the same Chameleon yet.

[jaybee3.insanejournal.com]

So when we see MJ hooking up with some wildly inappropriate guy/enemy of Peter/using her to get to Peter whatever we can blame it on her seeing lipstick on NotPeter's collar and NotPeter saying she wasn't Gwen right? Because I could totally see that coming.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

COMEDY!!!

You know what really bugs me about this tale..

[steverodgers5.insanejournal.com]

Yeah I get all the horrible implications of what the villain is doing with Michelle, but I have to ask how is that even possible with the Chameleon?

Is he now officially a shape changer? I mean I know he's used image inducers in the past, (On his belt and so forth..) but in this story he seems to be using the old Mission Impossible molded-mask routine. And y'know I can just about buy that it might look real, but would it really feel real? With all the hinted at carnal activities you'd think that might become apparent..

But I suppose it is the Marvel Universe, and that they could have some technical reason for it being THAT believable. I just wish they'd explained it more clearly in the story..

[zegim.insanejournal.com]

This arc went downhill fast. Real fast.

[(Anonymous)]

"you weren't her"

Wow that's cold, even for this writing staff. And watch them not even attempt to have peter later clarify that those weren't exactly his feelings at all, but someone else's


and part B, the gwen mention got me thinking...this staff pre-BND was really strongly considering bringing Gwen back in the reboot/retcon/whatever, like I know I've seen they almost were going to multiple times. Now these guys in charge grew up with their 1st 10-20 years of comics being Gwen still alive...

you think perhaps this is mirroring their feelings? They dislike mary jane b/c she's not gwen, and they grew up thinking she was the only one for peter?

[sandoz_iscariot.insanejournal.com]

There are professionals who have worked on the Spider-Man books (Erik Larson and Terry Moore are specific names I can think of) who have said as much in interviews that Gwen was the "one" for Peter and the Peter/MJ romance should have never happened or at least never become serious. (Some comments, particularly Larson's, have IMO gone beyond personal preferences re: characters and ventured into icky nice girl/bad girl, virgin/whore territory.)

And of course the question "Did Peter love Gwen more than MJ?" has been asked since the original Clone Saga in the 70s and keeps being revived in stories like "Sins Past," "House of M," and now this.

[(Anonymous)]

apparently they want everyone to hate peter like they did in high school...that's the only sense I can make out of all of this

[starwolf_oakley.insanejournal.com]

Well, the reason everyone hated Peter was because he wrecked the grade curve. (According to Erik Larson, IIRC.)

Later on we found out Aunt May wouldn't let him be friends with anyone. He was just to delicate/sensitive/whatever. Crazy bint.