Avengers: Endgame (spoilers-a-plenty)

[stubbleupdate]

That was good, wasn't it?

I uninstalled twitter from my phone for two days, but now that I've seen it, I can re-emerge to the internet at large.

This post is a space for people who have seen the film to discuss the film, with all of the spoilers that that entails

Comments

[arilou_skiff]

It was certainly... *Interesting*.

As a movie it really does throw a lot of stuff out of the window, the structure is kind aweird, the denoument feels like it's way too long, but looking at it not as a movie but as the capstone of an 10+ year series it works very well.

The themes of loss and coming to terms with it was fairly on-the-nose, it did a decent job of clearing out the old characters, it had some funny moments (though I think they made Thor a bit *too* cartoonish) I was honestly surprised at how the showdown at Thanos farm went, but once that happened the rest of the movie's course was pretty clear, but well done nonetheless.

The Epic Showdown of Infinite Epicness was really well... Epic. The way the Assembling just kept *going on*. It really felt like a Comic Crossover Set Piece (in a good way) and they even did the "Two sides running at each other" shot.

It felt a bit indulgent with the nostalgia/time travel bits, but also like it had earned it.

Also, this might just be the new COH servers showing up but Carol showing up at the big battle reminded me of Emperor Cole dropping Battle Maiden from Orbit in the Apex Task force, LOL :p

[akodo_rokku]

CoH coming back and Endgame coming out basically made this the biggest and best week in superhero history.

[stubbleupdate]

We ended up quite close to the Time Runs Out Avengers, with
Old Man Rogers
Captain Rogers
Clever Hulk
Sad, Massive Axe Thor

[silverzeo]

You know... when phrased like that, it sounds an AWFUL alot like Futurama's Bender's Big Score....

[mazway_75]

SO many wild bits but the one that stood out for me?

That they actually had Cap using "Hail Hydra" in the MCU and it made sense.

[stubbleupdate]

The lift scene was great because I expected a re-run of Winter Soldier's, but got something even better.

Still only the 2nd best Lift Scene behind Get Help

[matrix_dragon]

It was a suitably epic finale to the Infinity Saga. There's a few changes I would have made (More Carol, a bit more detail to establish what the Five Years Later world is like, Nebula and Gamora being a direct part of the final Thanos brawl), but given that several of my preferences would require an even longer run time, I'm not going to complain too much there.

The path they went with Thor in particular was VERY interesting. To show him so broken, so apathetic to the situation at large, but having Mjolnir still consider him worthy? Bold of them.

And I have to admit, the 'Cap marching up to Thanos defiant' scene was as epic a moment as it was in the comics.

[mazway_75]

At first jarred at Carol but then realizing they were basically shooting her own movie at the same time so makes sense she spends years trying to help other planets and let the Avengers handle Earth.

[zachbeacon]

I can't believe Thanos was devoured by a swarm of squirrels.

[mazway_75]

Obviously so many issues with timeline and such (Cap in the past, etc) but someone made a great point on what this means for Spider-Man Far From Home.

"So after five years of being thought dead, all these kids are still in high school? And their parents okay with them going on a trip?"

[tripodeca113]

There are a lot of troubling implications, that I suspect will be quietly ignored going forward.

You know what would be weird, if one of their classmates survived, but is now five years older than them.

[tripodeca113]

I wasn't expecting the Inhumans to save the day, but I guess were not rid of them quite yet.

[stubbleupdate]

That was actually what i was most scared of; the grand finale being a bullshit excuse to introduce the Fantastic Four or X-men into a story that didn't need them.

I'm so pleased that nothing like that happened.

[spiraltin]

Ooh, hoo boy.

To get it out of the way, I was massively let down(?, disappointed?) by this. For some context, I've enjoyed the Russo Bro's MCU films to day, but I think I hated this. If I didn't know better, I'd think that the Russo's had been replaced by other directors, or there were Solo style behind the scenes shenannigans.

For one thing, the action was weightless and confusing. I know the Russo's seem to generally favour darker lighting, but making that same choice here did zero favours to the final battle. Things like Pepper showing up in the Rescue suit had no impact because there was no clear establishing shot of her in the full suit, and I think the it read as blue is because we saw the helmet in an earlier scene. Other stuff seemed like crowd pleasing shots with no payoff (i.e. all the female heroes lining up to help get the gauntlet to the van(?), which then comes to nothing as there is no sequence of them helping move the thing closer to the van, and it ultimately doesn't get there. Similarly, Ant Man's rescue of Rocket, Hulk and Rhodey, which is half there (good setup, establishing that the Hulk is stuck holding up the ceiling, rocket is trapped, and Rhodes is impaired by his spinal injury, but it felt like there was something missing between the trailer shots of Ant Man from that sequence and Giant Man bursting out of the ground. Not sure what, but it fails to land.

I remember saying to a friend that IW felt like a good event comic. Big, and sprawling, but it felt very purposeful, and it remembered to have interesting character interactions throughout (i.e. Bucky and Rocket, two characters who otherwise would never meet). This seemed to lack those moments, and just felt gratuitous and fanservicey. And man cannot live on fan service alone. My crowd was very reactive, cheering at the intended points (The hammer, that shot of the female heroes collecting to aid Peter), but as a viewer I need more than "they did the thing!", I need it to feel well integrated. I feel like you could have gotten something interesting had that been followed by a sequence of shots where each of the female heroes did their thing to ward off a threat and move the gauntlet closer to the goal, plus together with a little more build up to why those characters in particular were all positioned to help in that moment.

Going in, I was expecting that the time skip wouldn't be as extreme as it was, or that it would be reversed. And that probably everyone not at the epicentre would forget what happened, because as it is, half the universe dying should have massive and unavoidable ramifications in every film going forwards. Like, I guess all of Peter's friends got dusted, because there's not a 5 year age gap between say, Flash and MJ in the Far From Home trailers. And like, what would the snap do to the economy? Did Tony and Pepper use the snap to shore up their wealth as the system was rocked in the immediate aftermath. And that's just one of the ways that the would should have been irreparable broken by 5 years of a post-snap economy. Which now has to adjust to everyone coming back. Like, I could of handwaved all of that had things been undone and restored a few days after the snap through time travel, but as soon as we met Tony and Pepper's kid, that was never going to happen.

Back on a personal level, if Tony was going to die, why was Rhodey not more prominant? He's sidelined again (though I did like the recognition of his spinal injury, both in his scene with Nebula, and his peril at the end), but he's front and centre during the funeral bits, where he should be. Problem is, why aren't we getting some scenes reinforcing the fact that they are best friends throughout the film, to remind the audience that Rhodey has a place side by side with Happy, Pepper and the Daughter at the end? It's a missed opportunity to add some emotional depth that I felt was lacking. There's not nothing (he's the one trying to calm Tony after his post-space freakout at the start, after all), but you know Tony is going to die. Tony's destined to die, yet his best friend character is still criminally underused as we're building towards that death. Look at Civil war for the opposite- we know that Rhodey is going to be injured, so we establish his presense, and some of his closeness to Tony is established before the crash. It's why Rhodey's injury worked way more than Goliath's death in the comic version, because in this case, Tony's creation hurt a character he has an established connection with.

It is interesting to see the evolution of what Marvel will trust it's audience with. They started out cautious in IM1, with Shield being given a technical name, and in IM2, War Machine was not directly named, but coined in dialogue. Subtle, but it's where they were. Then you advance a bit, where GOTG can introduce so much, and we start getting villains with very comicky names like Killmonger, or Ego. Black Panther is where they start to lose me, since Wakanda is just a bit too advanced, and everyone starts to use disappearing helmets, with entire suits now able to disappear into nothing as well (BP, IW/Endgame Iron Man, the Quantum Realm suits). And now we just have straight up time travel, which remains fully accessible (not even a time stone required. Just Pym tech)

I feel like I have more to say, but this is already rambly enough. Some of these are older/wider concerns I've had for a bit (the trend towards less grounded technology, like the disappearing helmets), some are specific to this film itself.

[matrix_dragon]

I've long since acknowledged they'll never give Rhodey the screen time he deserves. I don't like it, but it's what they keep doing.

Settle an argument...

[stubbleupdate]

CBR says that the sound at the end was Tony hammering on iron.

I thought it it Bell honours from a military funeral.

Who is right?

Re: Settle an argument...

[silverzeo]

Both.

[shakalooloo]

Where was Judy Greer? Yeah, touching to have Cassie with Scott and Hope, but still...

And bringing back everyone that was snapped away while leaving everything else that happened still dooms all those poor souls who were passengers of planes whose pilots vanished, or patients under the care of dusted doctors, or any number of other disasters. Dick move on Tony's part.

Sure, he saved his daughter, but he saved her childhood growing up in a post-demi-apocalyptic world - wouldn't he rather have the chance to raise her with a 'normal' world?

Good thing the Netflix series all ended, otherwise they'd be forced to have everyone live through a five-year Thanosised world, or else deploy a five-year time skip and obliquely refer to 'that other incident' with their tongues in cheek.

I don't know what to think.#

And for all that build-up, Captain Marvel actually didn't contribute anything. She could have been removed entirely with minimal change. At the very least, a scene between her and Tony at the moment of rescue would have been interesting.

[stubbleupdate]

No Judy Greer or Liv Tyler or Jaime Alexander...

I was very surprised to see Natalie Portman in it.

My thoughts and problems...

[silverzeo]

First off: i felt it was major fail when they didn't bring up Dragonball in their talk of time travel. I mean, COME ON! Is Scott NOT that big of a nerd? Seriously, Trunks was MADE for this movie.

2nd... I haven't seen the newer Spider-Man movies... but with Peter going to "Instant Kill" mode... kinda makes all that stink from Man of Steel seem pretty weak now, doesn't it? Everybody was upset with Superman breaking Zod's neck for saving lives but nearly all of the Avengers killing aliens who might as well be like Nebula (captured and "raised" by Thanos to know no better) is okay...

Still... so far, everything that had hype for 2019 has been a HUGE disappointment... Scooby Doo and The Curse of the 13th Ghost, Kingdom Hearts 3, and so on... but I knew the Avengers wouldn't. It's Disney and Marvel, they got everything they need to be right while everyone else has to deal with all their problems.
So I am kinda happy to see a great film... while upset knowing that almost everything else won't be able to pull something like this off... for now at least. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are still in high regard, so maybe DC or maybe an good adaption of video games or manga/anime characters can happen too.

Another problem I have, though absolutely not the MCU's fault but rather fans/marketing people of it is that they seem to make it seem like that if it isn't this big live action appeal, then it would still be considered kids' stuff...
Like, I remember how EVERYONE on twitter was trying to build up "In the SPider-Verse" a legit movie despite being animated and NOT being part of MCU as a great and legit superhero movie as well as great and legit movie by itself (despite the likes of the LEGO movie and the original Disney Beauty and the Beast movie nominated for best picture by the Academy). Too bad some other won't really see this kind of build for most animated stuff, I know nobody outside of nerds care for the old Justice League/Unlimited cartoon... I took my Dad to see the Death/Return of Superman animated movies... and he had NO idea who Martian Manhutner was...

Maybe instead of being bum about this, I should try to appreciate the stuff personally...

Re: My thoughts and problems...

[coldfury]

The Instant-Kill mode was a throwback to Spider-Man Homecoming. Spidey has hacked his suit and is finding all the different modes Tony has put in it without reading the manual, and accidentally almost activates 'instant kill' mode and shuts it down in a panic.

So having him activate that in a situation where it was needed and useful was a pretty good callback.

People at the funeral

[ironymaiden]

There was a young white guy with dark hair who I didn't recognize.
Thoughts?

Re: People at the funeral

[stubbleupdate]

Kid from Iron Man 3

[dcbanacek]

For me the best shot in the film was when Captain America with his shield broken, his allies down, Thanos and all of his armies before him, gets up, straps his shield to his arm even tighter and prepares to enter the fight for the final time... just one man alone against the oncoming tide...

Then you hear "On your left..."

[icon_uk]

And they DIDN'T have him use "I could do this all day", mostly because it would ahve lost something after the earlier joke, but still...

[tripodeca113]

I have decided that Queen Valkyrie got together with Lady Sif, after this film. I shall cling to this.

Part 1 - characters

[janegray]

I cried a lot.

I realize that, as the actors didn't want to renew their contracts, the characters had to go. I went in fully expecting Tony and Steve to die, and probably others as well.

But I still felt terrible watching Tony and Nat die. Even though, objectively, if a character has to die, those are the best ways to go: heroic, meaningful, mourned.

I feel ambivalent about Steve's fate. I'm sad he left Bucky behind, I wish he hadn't. At the same time, I'm deeply irritated by a lot of posts I've seen, raging that Steve abandoned Bucky "for a girl he knew for a couple of months."

Yo, you can grieve for the death of your OTP without disrespecting Peggy like that. "Just a girl he knew for a couple of months" my ass. There wouldn't be a Captain America if Peggy had not inspired Steve when he was going to give up his dream and continue living as a circus monkey. Both Bucky and Peggy are the spine of Cap's mythos, and it's really crappy to act as if Steve left Bucky to go hook up with a random OC.

Moving on. I thought Thor had an interesting arch, and was perplexed that so many fans think he was ruined. The whole point of Thor is that he is compassionate and protective of his people. In Endgame, he failed to protect his people, so that most of them died horribly (Thanos killed half of the survivors of Hela's massacre, so the Asgardians that reached Earth are much fewer than a half of the initial population). On top of that, he lost his mother, his father, and his brother.

Of course he is depressed and has let himself go. But the point is that, through it all, he never lost his compassion. It takes very little to convince him to face his worst fears so he can help people again. And that chat he had with his mother was so moving.

As for Nat and Clint, as sad as I was to see Nat go (;_;), I'm glad Clint survived. There are A BAZILLION stories of the parent who sacrifices himself or herself to save their family. For once I want a single goddamn story of the parent who succeeds in saving the family, and then gets to go back home and live with them.

EDIT: forgot to add, is Peter still half-god? I can't remember if destroying Egos turned him fully into a human.

Re: Part 1 - characters

[shakalooloo]

Thor just went too far into comedy, for me. I get that Chris Hemsworth is a funny guy, but there was near-whiplash from the sombre moments to the 'hilarious drunk' schtick. Remember when he was the straight guy?

Part 2 - story

[janegray]

I have no idea what happened with the timeline.

I thought the whole point of needing to steal the gems in the subtlest possible way, without anybody noticing, and then bringing them back with just as much secrecy at the exact moment they had been stolen, was to avoid a temporal paradox.

Like "if you change the past, you change the future, so we in the future don't go to the past, and everything breaks apart." That makes perfect sense to me.

Even Steve staying in the past could arguably maintain the timeline, so long as he avoids making any changes. Sure, it's weird to think that Cap would let Bucky suffer as a prisoner of Hydra, but Cap does know for a fact that Bucky is going to be rescued and helped find peace eventually. The thought that attempting to rescue Bucky before that time could end up accidentally killing him might convince Steve that waiting for a happy ending that is sure to come is better than risking to get Bucky killed to spare him temporary suffering. Same reasoning for why he would not prevent Hydra from taking over SHIELD. And he would have to make sure that they go fish his body out of the ocean 70 years later. Weird, but ok, I could buy it.

...But then they outright go and kill Past Thanos!

If Thanos was killed in the past, he couldn't possibly have snapped his fingers five years before. The entire timeline has been changed. Wtf?

Past Nebula was killed too. Wouldn't that have caused Present Nebula to disappear? Gamora was taken into the present, but she was instrumental in saving the Galaxy in the past.

I would dismiss it as an alt timeline, though that does come with its share of issues.

(So temporal paradoxes are not an issue anymore? Goddamnit I was really hoping for one timetravel story that would avoid them. And does that mean that the Avengers doomed the alt timeline, since Ego could not be stopped anymore?)

But Cap comes back to the present day simply by living out his life and growing old, no time travel involved. So that means he lived in the "main" timeline, not the supposedly newly-created alt-one.

Tl;dr: ?????????????????????????

"...Back to the Future is bullpoop?"

[deh_tommy]

Time travel in the MARVEL multiverse runs on... well, multiverse theory.

Basically, if you go back in time and, say, kill baby Adolf Hitler, then go back to your own time... nothing's changed. Baby Hitler grew up to be an adult and went on a genocidal campaign of conquest across Europe. However, what you've just done is create a reality where Hitler was killed as a baby, which will continue to exist in that's own timestream separate from the one you came from. Hence, how present Nebula could just kill past Nebula without issue, or how Tony could snap all the past villains without causing damage to the present.

The reason why The Ancient One was so apprehensive about giving the Time Stone to the Avengers was that while their reality would get a happy ending, hers would end up being doomed forever without said Stone to fight back against Dormammu.

I think the implication with Captain America was that he could travel back to his own time so long as he had access to Pym particles, but before he went back, decided to spend his life with Peggy first (again, in a timeline separate to the one we all know).

[janegray]

Google Thanos and click on the glove. Holy shit!

[icon_uk]

Heh, that's cute! :)

[joetuss]

What I didn't like: Thor was a joke, Hulk didn't have any Hulk moments, and of course Captain Marvel was in it.

What I did like: Tessa Thompson was in it, Cap kicked ass, Scarlet Witch kicked ass

[shakalooloo]

The part where Captain Marvel holds off Thanos (but if she can take a headbutt from him without showing any impact at how, how can she not overpower him like a child?) should really have been Smarthulk having his rematch, getting over his fear from the previous movie.

[icon_uk]

Wanda's fight with Thanos was so damn cathartic. Guy had to call in the equivlaent of a double dozen ICBM's to even get away from her, and in so doing damaged his own troops as badly as the heroes.

What I might respectfully describe as the "ladies moment" where we see ALL of the ladies gathered together and more kick-ass in a single shot has never been seen. A shame that so little came of it.

THAT moment (Silly though it is in a spoiler thread, I can't even write the spoiler) when Steve proves something we've suspected for several movies now and it makes sense. (And someone else's reaction to said moment)

Tom Holland's Peter Parker manages to push every one of my vaguely paternal/avuncular buttons. I just want this kid to have an awesome life whilst being the hero he's not aware he is yet.

Captain Marvel being amazingly powerful (I didn't manage to get to see her solo movie yet) but not an overly convenient plot-device.

"That outfit does nothing for Steve's ass"

That Chris Evan's last scene in the MCU is Steve getting his dance with Peggy.

Surprised at no dedication to Stan Lee at any point, you think he'd have got an on screen mention. I actually wondered if he might be included in the "Signing Off" sequence in the credits.

For all their waffle about timelines, their timeline is now SO officially fried I can't even get annoyed, there's paradox aplenty in this.

The lack of a funeral of Nat irritated me, you think she'd have got the same level of respectful send off as Tony from the other heroes.

I'm torn on Clint. I'm happy he got a happy ending, but this is a guy who has now spent five years leaving a trail of disturbingly visceral violence through the world and who has a world class case of survivors guilt, not helped by Nat's sacrifice. This is a man who has severe emotional issues, which shouldn't be swept under the rug. I dread the poor soul who is the first to take one of his kids on a date.

[lieut_kettch]

I loved Wanda going all out on Thanos. Omega level hell yeah!

The “A-Force” moment seemed forced and cheesy and yet I still couldn’t stop smiling from ear-to-ear when I saw it.

Mod Note!

[icon_uk]

For ease of searching by others, please put "NoScans in the title of this post, and tag this as "ns: multimedia"

[mazway_75]

It just hit me how it might actually be better for the Netflix Marvel shows to have been axed rather than all of them having to do some big five-year time jump over a ravaged world.

[mrwalker]

Maybe, but I still couldn't help but hold on to irrational hope that the Defenders would pop in during that epic "Assemble!" scene.

[mrwalker]

I haven't read all the comments yet, so sorry if this is answered elsewhere. But...didn't Nebula explain to Clint and Nat HOW they would have to get the Soul Stone? Or at least their best theory of it?

Also I saw William Hurt in the credits but didn't notice Ross anywhere. Did I miss him at the funeral?

Overall, it lived up to the hype for me.

[stubbleupdate]

Ross was standing next to Hill

[stubbleupdate]

It took until half past 1 in the afternoon on Friday before somebody shouted a bunch of Endgame spoilers at me.

[bradygirl_12]

People who shout out spoilers ought to be snapped away.

[bradygirl_12]

Fave moment: Thor saying "I knew it" when the scene involving Mjolnir played out. Applause erupted in the theater. :)

[stubbleupdate]

I can't stand clapping or cheering in the cinema. I don't believe in "atmosphere" in the cinema. Sit down, be quiet and watch the film.

I think they were filming Gogglebox across the aisle from me. The woman kept on describing what was happening on screen
"Oh, they've all vanished."
"He's shaved his beard off"

Then the guy behind me told her to be quiet and that was it, mercifully.

Unless I've got this wrong...

[stubbleupdate]

In Infinity War, Thanos was fine after using the Gauntlet. It was using it to destroy the stones in Endgame that mangled his body.

Re: Unless I've got this wrong...

[kuratowa]

I went back and watched it when I went home. His arm is all mangled after the snap.